Subject: 12 or 24volts?
From: Rotary Engine
Date: 1/19/2006, 7:37 AM
To: AA-me


    > How does tracy's computer run on 24V?  How are the prices of 24V
   fuel
    > pumps compared to the 12V versions?
    >
    >
    > Matt-


   Matt, and others.

   I have Tracy's EC-2 unit at the moment and after ground testing the
   engine I
   will make the decision to use it in flight or not. So far I like
   very much
   what I see.  Changing the input to 24 DC is a relatively easy fix. I
   haven't
   cracked open his box but I assume it has a step down power conditioner
   circuit to bring lower dc power to IC chips that require somewhere
   between 3
   to 9 vdc.



Makes sense..  Does Tracy's computer still only use one power input?

   Fuel pumps, fuel injectors, spark plugs igniters are not something I
   have
   investigated yet but I can imagine that they must be available
   because of
   the huge truck market that run on 24vs. I am trying to buy a 24vdc
   starter
   gen now however and I may have to have a 12v unit rewound.


I think most of those trucks run on diesel, and have engine driven high
pressure fuel pumps.  There  may be some gasoline 24V systems, but I
doubt that there are many.  Not an insurmountable issue, but something
to consider.  And something that may unnecessarily raise cost.  I don't
know.


   Excuse the verbiage but here are my thoughts based on 30 years
   playing with
   batteries and electrical energy production devices. First up.  We
   are all
   researcher and experimenters. As such IMHO price is not the most
   important
   criteria upon which to base a safely designed electrically
   system.  Just as
   Paul harps about silicon heater hoses and quality hose clamps a good
   electrical system is equally important.  Within reason, price reduction
   decisions come into play after experience (yours or others) in
   successfully
   operating a system. This is why prototypes are so bloody expensive
   or time
   consuming.


Actually, I think prototypes are expensive not because engineers pick
the best of the best at the outset, but because there are so many
iterations in the design process.  I have to admit, however, that
sometimes if higher priced materials/components were initially selected,
fewer design iterations would be required to reach an acceptable
product.  False economy can be a killer.

Many people are involved in experimental aviation because paying for a
like product from the certificated market is unpalatably expensive.


   Our rotary engine happens to be originally designed for an auto but
   we are
   modifying it for an airplane and as such a different criteria apply.

   Is 24 volts better? It depends on your type of flying. You are free
   to use
   the 12v or 24v and both have their advantages and disadvantages to the
   recreational flyer.

   I think most of Greg's customers have fast planes that fly
   occasionally in
   IFR conditions and perhaps depend upon their electrical avionics
   systems
   more.  My plane and type of flying will fall into this category. As the
   speed of the plane and the distance to be flown goes up I believe
   the 24vdc
   system makes more sense.

   Lead acid battery is an old, heavily research, technology and is one
   item
   that you actually get what you pay for. Lead in this case. The
   cheapo car
   battery you can buy at Wally's are relatively lightweight and start the
   engine by delivering a lot of amps for a short amount of time. The
   plates in
   the batteries are thin, and as such the lead is minimized. This allows
   electrons to flow faster. The alternator usually tops off these
   batteries
   quickly so in operation the battery is just a buffer for the
   alternator to
   supply juice through.  When the alternator goes south, the 12 volt gel
   battery (at 13.7 volts in the float charge mode) starts draining down to
   become useless around 10volts. this data varies with makers
   somewhat.  What
   doesn't vary is that after you discharge your starter battery to the low
   'dead' voltage several times the plates sulfate and no amount of
   charging
   will bring it back to life. Replacement time.  We all know this.


Gel cell??


   All of the major airlines use 'Lifeline' deep cycle batteries
   however. Why?
   Besides the military spec. rating, they are deep cycle batteries and
   as such
   can be deeply drained down. Translation:  You can actually use more
   of the
   capacity of the battery. Something airlines want with all of their
   electronic fail safe modes. True deep cycle batteries are heavier
   because
   they have thicker plates and hence more lead. They are designed to be
   brought down to 20% remaining charge 500 times or so and with the
   latest AGM
   (Absorbed Glass Mat) construction method do an adequate job of
   starting the
   engine as well.


I suspect that the main reason that the big boys need deep cycle
batteries is that engine starting on a turbine lasts a much longer time
that it does on a small recip, requiring more total energy.  It's just a
matter of the physics.  Even with huge deep cycle batteries on a
turbine, self starts are not always a given.  Ground power for starts
(or APU starts) are definitely preferred.


   If they are only discharged down to 80% full level which is typical in
   Telecom. photovoltaic/wind gen. systems, the batteries will last
   1500 to
   3000 cycles  in my experience. One or more engine out situations doesn't
   even hurt them. Because of their long life you don't have to change
   them out
   at every annual either. Some of them at my off the grid workshop are
   now due
   for a change after 13 years even though they still have some reduced
   capacity.


Actually, the engine-out scenario is easy to have enough battery for..
Even at high cruise altitude, it likely won't take 30minutes for you to
land if the engine quits.  I think we can keep gyros spun up for that
long with a couple of flashlight batteries.

The hard scenario is where you have 8 hours of fuel on board, and it's 5
hours to a suitable landing site.  If your engine needs 10A to keep
running, that's a lot of charge to haul around.  I believe for long
distance flight, the highest priority should be placed on redundant
engine driven electrical power.  The big boys DO have that.

If the alternator on my single alternator airplane craps out on a long
flight, and I have to deplete the battery in order to make a safe
landing, the least of my concerns is going to be about battery
replacement cost.


      One 24v battery or two 12 batteries wired in series? Doesn't
   matter. How
   do you want to affect your planes CG? and/or wiring runs? I know
   some planes
   that have the batteries wired so that they be switched  either in 12v
   parallel or 24v series for starting the engine but that is another
   story.



Definitely agree here. This isn't that hard to figure out.  I believe
more energy storage per dollar can be had with multiple 12v batteries as
opposed to half the number of 24V units.  That's just a market demand
issue.


   The future of batteries?  Bill Dude is the guy to comment. Perhaps
   hundreds
   of 2.6 vdc volt LiH rechargeable batteries assembled into a flat battery
   pack might make a nice lightweight high density battery for our
   homebuilts?
   But their goes the alternator regulator design:)


   Doug in Japan



Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this Doug..  While we don't totally
agree on everything, it's good to keep the design discussion going in
order to learn and improve..


Regards,

Matt-

Sorry, but embedded reply was the only thing that made sense..

Matt-

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