Subject: CHT data acq
From: Rotary Engine
Date: 4/2/2007, 5:48 PM
To: AARotary Engine


               Paul,
               I'm just starting the disassembly / inspection of my 20B
   for the
           purpose
               of an aircraft conversion.  The thing that seems to be
   worrying
           me the
               most is the water pump.  That thing is huge, or at least it
           sticks up in
               the air a mile over the top of the engine
   block.  And....the
       pump is
               cast iron in an aluminum housing....very heavy!!  Is there
       some way
               to modify, or preferably another pump that will mount in its
           place that
               will solve these issues?  This thing will NEVER go inside
       the engine
               cowl?

               Thanks again!!
               Don Mitchell

               No problem. Not to worry.
               I'll give you a step by step on how to cut it down with
       pictures. I
               did one for Bulent and his is working and cooling fine.
       Later today.


               Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.


           Don,
           If I can jump in here with a comment or two.  Yes the 20B wp is
       big and
           heavy.  I'm in the process of converting my 20B to accept
   the much
           lighter Renesis front cover and wp, saving 6# and get the better
       CAS in
           the process.  There is one bolt that will have to be drilled &
           tapped, but that's the only mod that I could see.  If you don't
       want to
           change the entire front cover, you can cut the wp section from
           the Renesis front cover and just use the wp section on the
       20B.  Since I
           wanted the newer style crank mounted CAS, I will be using the
       entire
           Renesis cover.  The coolant inlet/outlet on the Renesis is
   better
           suited for a/c purposes.

           Mark S.
           Lancair ES - N/A 20B

           Not so fast guys. The 20B impeller is a much better design
           than the RX8 impeller. The RX8 impeller is the same as the
           third gen. I think Mazda re-designed it for low average power
           street  car use to cut the WP power and improve the BSFC
           slightly. It seems to work on Tracy's RX8 2 rotor engine.

           Before I did something like this I would install a CHT
           sensor near the lower spark plug on the front rotor housing
           (tractor 20B powered airplane). Cooling wise the front end
           housing is the least well cooled. Particularly on the 20B.

           Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.



       Paul,
       Yes, I did the CHT mod as shown in
   ROTOR_HOUSING_THERMOCOUPLE.JPG when I
       had my engine disassembled and installed a thermocouple in each
   rotor
       housing.  So, now I can monitor the temps as you advise.  Does
   anyone
       know the flow rate of the Renesis wp?

       If I recall correctly, Tracy is running a Renesis wp on his
   RV-8.  Since
       he hasn't flown (that I know of), we'll have to wait a little
   longer to
       find out how well it cools.

       Mark Seitle.

       (we got two Mark S's )

       Great Mark. I know you have not flown yet but what kind of numbers
       are you seeing so far?

       Please fly with the stock pump. We need some base line CHT data.

       I don't have any data yet on the flow rate of the RX8 water
       pump. The second gen are 30 gallons a minute.
       --
       Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.

   Paul,
   Sorry, I didn't record the cht's.  I'll note that during the next run.
   As I recall, they were just slightly higher than the H2O temp.  I
   suspect that will change as I load the engine more.  Lots of things to
   watch during this phase.  Sure could use Tracy's data logger.

   I didn't plan on making the Renesis mod until later on.  I'm just
   gathering the parts for now.  You have to lock in the design somewhere
   or it will never fly.  ;-)

   Mark Seitle.

   I have a couple of data acq device I will loan you if you have a
   note book
   computer. Each device records four thermocouples values directly on
   the hard disk. Search Google for Omegabus D5321. These are
   K thermocouples  -150 to 1250C. RS232 so you will need
   a $20 RS232 to USB adapter cable and a terminal program that
   runs in the notebook computer.  I have two of these so you
   can record 8 channels. All three EGT's, water temp, oil temp
   and three CHT's and what ever else you need.

   http://www.omega.com/

   ---------------------------------------------------------------
   The D5000 Four Channel Sensor to Computer Modules are a family of
   complete solutions designed for data acquisition systems based on
   personal computers and other processor-based equipment with standard
   serial I/O ports. The modules convert four analog input signals to
   engineering units and transmit in ASCII format to any host with
   standard RS-485 or RS-232C ports. These modules can measure
   temperature, voltage and current. The modules provide direct
   connection to a wide variety of sensors and perform all signal
   conditioning, scaling, linearization and conversion to engineering
   units.
   The modules contain no pots or switches to be set. Features such as
   address, baud rate, parity, echo, etc. are selectable using simple
   commands over the communications port?without requiring access to
   the module. The selections are stored in nonvolatile EEPROM which
   maintains data even after power is removed.

   The key to the D5000 series is that the modules are easy to use. You
   do not need engineering experience in complicated data acquisition
   hardware. With the D5000 series modules, anyone familiar with a
   personal computer can construct a data acquisition system. This
   modular approach to data acquisition is very flexible, easy to use
   and cost effective. The modules can be mixed and matched to fit your
   application. They can be placed remote from the host and from each
   other. You can string up to 30 modules on one set of wires by using
   RS-485 with repeaters.

   All modules are supplied with screw-terminal plug connectors and
   captive mounting hardware. The connectors allow system expansion,
   reconfiguration or repair without disturbing field wiring.

   THEORY OF OPERATION
   D5000 modules are complete four-channel data acquisition systems.
   Each unit contains analog signal conditioning circuits optimized
   for a specific input type. The amplified sensor signals are converted
   to digital data with a microprocessor-controlled integrating A/D
   converter. Offset and gain errors in the analog circuitry are
   continuously monitored and corrected using microprocessor techniques.
   The D5000 converts the digital signal data into engineering units
   using look-up tables. The resultant data is stored in ASCII format
   in a memory buffer. The modules continuously convert data at the
   rate of 8 conversions per second and store the latest result in
   the buffer.

   The host computer may request data by sending simple ASCII commands
   to the module.

   DIGITAL FILTER
   The D5000 options include a unique programmable single pole digital
   filter. The filter is used to smooth analog data in noisy
   environments. Separate time constants may be specified for small
   and large signal changes. Typically, a large time constant is
   specified for small signal changes to filter out noise and provide
   stable output readings. A smaller time constant may be chosen for
   large signal changes to provide fast response to such changes.

   COMMUNICATIONS
   The D5000 are designed to be easy to interface to all popular
   computers and terminals. All communications to and from the
   module are performed with printable ASCII The D5000 will instantly
   respond by communicating the ASCII buffer data back to the host.

   -----------------------------------------

   I am so happy you installed those thermocouples Mark. The CHT
   is the bottom line on a lot of things. It affects detonation and
   spark plug life as well as the integrity of the rotor housing.
   Not to mention we can finally get a real handle on how much
   water flow is really necessary to cool the engine at sustained
   high power.

   Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.


Paul,

Besides me, you're the first person that I've run across that thought
that this mod was of any real benefit.  What is the recommended way to
install the thermocouples?  I used red RTV, mainly because I wanted to
be able to remove them if necessary.

What do those data acquisition units cost?  I wouldn't mind having one
for first flight and beyond.  I already have a laptop.  As evidenced by
my previous message, my memory isn't what it used to be.  Do I need
to send my EC-2 back to Tracy's for upgrading in order to do this?

I have a basic DATAQ Instruments (http://www.dataq.com/194.htm),
model DI-194 data unit.  Are you familiar with this?  Would it work?

Mark S.

Red RTV is good to 500 F so that should be just about OK.

The Omegabus modules are $250 each and there is free Windows software
on the Omega web site for controlling them. I will be glad to
loan you a couple.

No the system is entirely separate from Tracy system and you
can record almost an unlimited amount of data on a hard disk.
Notebook computers are getting smaller and smaller and
hard disk drives are being replaced by solid state flash
memory for excellent shock and altitude resistance.

The problem with the DI-194 data unit is they are +/- 10 Volt
input. The Omega units have the amplifiers needed for direct
connection to thermal couples. Thermal couples put only milli volts
and need special connections. also you get all that free Windows
software that will read out and store in C directly.

CHT is the crux of the problem with any high continuous power
engine.


Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.

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