> There has been a discussion on the nopistons forum about TES
o-rings. The installation
>
> method that some of the guys used may questionable, but I
thought
it may be good to discuss here.
>
> http://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67208
< http://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67208>
>
> Post 35 on the second page has some pictures of the o-rings
after
a tear down.
>
> What are your thoughts Paul?
>
> Heath
>
> I am not allowed to access that forum :) Obviously they
don't
want the truth :)
> If you want to cut and paste the message to an email and
send it
to me I will comment.
>
> If they are too big they WILL cause BIG problems. People
have to
> buy the exact right size directly from Creavey. What they
sell
elsewhere
> may not be the right size. For an example a 3/32" dia. O
ring
will not cut it and
> will cause problems as it is not .096" in diameter as one
would
think.
> It is .108" inches in diameter. TOO BIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Here is a pdf file on the subject.
>
> Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.
You have to register and sign in to view the post. I PDF'd the
post
in case you
don't want to register. The post is concerning TES o-rings
Tracy
sells, and I
assume he followed your guidelines when putting the package
together. This may
very well be a case of operator error as far as proper
installation
as some people
that responded to the post had good luck and others did
not. One
person did reference
your website and write up on TES o-ring selection.
Heath Holbrook
I don't register and I don't require people to register here. I
ask
people here
to sign their name. Sometimes they don't but I know who they
are.
I don't know what register is about but I think they are just
gathering information
for marketing purposes.
No comment on the pdf as I don't know who "B" is :) He could be
working for
Mazda Parts Department :) The thing about the Internet is
there are
shills lurking
about. A shill is a person that is paid to discredit certain
products and services
and sell other products or services instead. I have certain
ways of
detecting shills
with about 12 years experience on BBS's and the Internet. If
I told
you about the
ways I would have to kill you :)
I will say "B" is not providing the required details on
diagnostics
of his alleged overheating.
For example; Does the water jacket hold pressure? Is there a
coolant
loss?
As far as I can tell "B" stands for Bull shiter :) Also the
O-rings
he is talking
about did not come from Creavey and I have no idea what size
they are.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I take it back about "B" and I apologize to him. I checked
back on
the old messages
and he was on the list for awhile. His name (I think) is
Brian D.
Cain. He seems reasonable.
What he apparently refuses to do is store the TES O-rings on a
board
for a few days
to flatten them before using. This is IMHO absolutely
essential.
Also people complaining
about over heating with these TES O-rings are not
pressurizing the
cooling system to check
for internal leaks. All real mechanics know how to do that.
Over
heating can be caused by a
myriad of factors of course.
The TES O-ring splitting is unheard of using Creavey O-rings.
Somebody somewhere
has a quality control problem. It could be Creavey as I
don't know
where these
TES O-rings were purchased. Looking at the McMaster TES
O-rings one
can tell they
obviously are made by some one other than Creavey. Perhaps
made in
China.
Mic those O-rings when you get them for being the proper size.
Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.
Paul,
I'm wondering if the engines that had problems also had lapped side
housings. It looked to me that at least one of the TES o-rings were
pinched and later failed. If you grind/lap the side housings a few
thousandths, wouldn't you need to change to smaller cross-section
o-rings?
BTW, my TES o-rings were easy to install, once I got the correct
lengths. No leaks either, and I'm running a 25# pressure cap. I
used
Hylomar to hold them in place. The guys on the No Pistons list talk
about using Vaseline. Maybe that's why they're having trouble?
Just a
guess...
Mark St.
A few thou should not make a difference. 10 thou or more is another
matter.
Vaseline is the Mazda recommended stuff. The main seal is metal
to metal
as Hylomar won't take that heat directly. I know people use it and
get away with it but I would not recommend it for this application.
The O-rings are there to keep the coolant in the water jacket and
not seal the combustion gases. However even the stock square seals
have a
layer of Teflon on one side. Mazda calls it white paint in the shop
manuals
but it is Teflon which becomes obvious when they are removed from a
used engine.
The Teflon goes on the OUTSIDE of the seal because of the exhaust
gases
recirculated in the rotor and end housings are very close to the
O-rings... I think.
No oil is allowed on the silcone rubber as silcone is attacked by
hydro carbons. That is another reason TES O-rings are better.
Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.
Reminder.. Please sign your posts..
Thanks,
Matt-
Hi guys,
I'm still a member of this newsletter. Have been since 1998. Since I'm
finally responding to the few posts, I'd like to have a chance to defend
myself against a couple of things that were said as well as comment about
the original thread I created on NoPistons.com.
I'm not a shill. Never heard the term before, but based on Paul's
explanation, it doesn't fit me in the slightest. I'm a personal business
owner and have been for 5 years. I have no particular relationship
with any other business that would otherwise preclude me being
someone who'd commit some sort of product espionage or false
advertisement, etc. Quite frankly, that's ridiculous. I'm a guy
who builds rotary engines for the street car enthusiast as well as a
guy who travels the nation tuning these things typically for power
production. My interests therefore involve the use of good, high
quality products. "I don't build junk" is a phrase I use with most
people who've never met me who are also considering doing business
with me. My name is too important to me to be put on stuff that I've
built that'll fall apart in short order. I take my work very seriously.
This
is what I live to do.
Which leads me to the reasons why I posted what I did about the
Rotary Aviation o-ring set. There's no malice intended here. I don't
have any personal beef against Laura or Tracy Crook; on the contrary,
they seem like real nice people. There's also no promotion of another
product by way of proxy here. It's a straight-up, customer-oriented
review of their o-ring product. Up until fall of last year, I was a very
consistent user of their o-ring kit and had been since late '03. I'd
used
them in almost every engine I'd built in that period of time. In my
opinion,
based on the steady use of their product for that nearly 3-year period of
time,
I think it makes me a pretty good customer and certainly someone who's
worthy to give his input. Their response to my complaint wasn't
reasonable,
at least whomever the person was who responded to the individual on that
forum that forwarded them the thread wasn't. I would think the proper
one would be somewhere in the neighborhood of wanting to in the least
take a look at the issue and see if it has merit, let alone take
measures to
fix the problem so it doesn't occur again.
Paul, what kind of details am I leaving out? I thought I'd described
this failure and my theories behind why quite well. I feel as if the
array of pictures I've posted speak for themselves. Is there something
else that you'd like to know about that might help form a better opinion?
You also mentioned that I should be storing (forming) these o-rings
around a wooden template as per pictured on your website.
http://www.rotaryeng.net/O-ring-size2.html Like I've already mentioned,
why in the world should I? Do you see any information on their website
that demands any such thing?
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/o-ring_kits.htm
I sure don't. Let's look at a couple of other factors: One, this o-ring
kit is
made to be easily purchased. They've got Paypal links on there.
Secondly, it's evident that these kits are targeted for not just the
aircraft
guys but also car guys like myself. Therefore, the target market is much
more broad and encompassing. If there's supposed to be some sort of
instruction when it comes to the "proper" installation of these o-rings,
given the target market, does it seem therefore reasonable that they're
at fault for not providing that said instruction? They're selling the
product;
it's their responsibility to serve their market rightly. How in the
world
can
a guy like me or anyone else for that matter be blamed for their o-rings
going bad, all the while ignoring the clear evidence of the Teflon
jacketing
splitting long-ways for no apparent reason? I'm not at fault for not
building
some wooden template. I can't read minds, and when I buy a product
that's clearly advertised for the engine I'm using, that lacks *any*
other
(allegedly) critical information regarding its installation and use, why
should I
be held responsible? That's silly.
I don't know who the manufacturer of these o-rings is and quite frankly
I don't care. I'm an engine builder and a customer and I demand
satisfaction from not only what I buy for myself but also
what I buy and therefore build for others that has my name on it. I'm
still
very upset from the fact that I've had to shell out money of my own to
repair several engines now (the count is up to 7) because of the
glaringly
obvious defect of this product, whether it be a material or application
error.
Having to tear a motor apart because of an o-ring that splits along the
edge,
having nothing to do with installation, is just absurd. I'm also still
upset
at RA's very arrogant and condescending response to my complaint about
their product, implying that since I'm not a "commercial builder", or
however they exactly characterized it, and since they've only seen
some ridiculous
"0.001% failure rate" that my complaint (implicitly) therefore doesn't
matter. What hogwash.
Someone mentioned that I seem reasonable. I like to think I am as
I believe the strength of an argument rests solely on its merits. Here's
a (hopefully) reasonable question, I think: Given the vastly higher
standard of quality and workmanship that's demanded in aircraft use
vs. that of automotive, wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest that not
only these o-rings be applied (or manufactured, whichever it is)
correctly,
but also be sold and delivered in a way that's replete with this said
"instruction" of forming them for the factory o-ring land and anything
else for that matter?? You guys are using these in airplanes, for crying
out loud. Have an odd overheating symptom that produces an
out-of-nowhere,
symptomatically stratospheric water temp or rock-hard radiator hoses for
no apparent reason?
Good luck pulling over to check why while at 10,000ft.
B
___________________________________________________________________________
Brian D. Cain -/- Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX -/- bdc@bdcmotorsports.com
BDC Motorsports | Performance Rotary Engines, Specialized Porting, EFI
System Installation & Tuning
http://www.bdcmotorsports.com -/- http://bdc.cyberosity.com
The only missing information I need to know about Brian is the exact
section diameter of the O-rings shipped to you. I would like to know
who supplied them to Tracy so we can avoid that source but so far
he is not fourth coming with that info. I have in the past recommended
only Creavey as we had some bad results with McMaster Carr.
Again I am sorry about the bad things I said about you after reading
the no pistons post.
Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.
B,
You are obviously more experienced with rotaries than I am, but I am also
self employed and take my work seriously. I have screwed up a few
times and
I have paid for the mistakes of others to protect my name in my
business. It
sucks but it is a cost of doing business and earning a reputation that
means
something. I clipped a few quotes out of your last post that contradict
each other. The first three are at odds with the last five.
"I don't build junk"
My name is too important to me
I take my work very seriously.
Like I've already mentioned, why in the world should I?
Do you see any information on their website that demands any such thing?
I'm not at fault for not building some wooden template.
why should I be held responsible? That's silly.
I don't know who the manufacturer of these o-rings is and quite frankly I
don't care."
The reason to form the seals on the board and to care who the
manufacturer
is, is to be able to make the first three claims. It is also why you
need to
measure accurately the ring diameter before installation. You can't
control
the quality of your product going out if you don't control it going in.
Maybe I'm just lucky in that I found these two important tricks before it
mattered to me. I'm sure you have lots of tricks that you employ in
putting
these together that aren't in the manual or printed on the parts box, but
that doesn't mean you don't use them.
John Gibbons
Hi John;
I have to side with Brian on this one.
<RANT>
He bought a product with the expectation it would be superior to the
stock orings - and has been burned big time...
Do you have to double check everything from everyone?
Have you reversed engineered Tracy's redrive? checked everything for
proper heat treating?
In fact, what testing was performed on anything??? care to share the data?
Have you looked at C6/E4OD planetary's, many look like rejects from
other car manufacturers...
How many "superior" aftermarket rotary engine products have appeared in
the last few years?
TES orings, apex seals, ceramic coatings...
I DO mean to sound harsh. I like Tracy and Laura - they are
entrepreneurial pioneers. BUT, This is EXPERIMENTAL
automotive/aviation and (mass) long term product testing has not been
performed...except by Mazda.
How many people even bothered to measure the size of orings themselves?
how many posted them? I DID.
There could be hundreds or thousands of engines affected.
Brian has been kind enough to share his experiences with us and alert us
to a potential problem. It might
even save someones life...I appreciate your feedback Brian - Thank you!
Check his contributions on nopistons.com
Properly sized, these TES orings sound better on paper in many
respects. The higher temperature "might"
provide an extra overheat margin.
Properly sized, they should not need to be stretched on a form at all...
Formed to shape would be nice - but these are off the shelf orings.
The question always arises as to whether any automotive component is
driven by cost reduction or quality.
Remember: Better is the enemy of good. In this case, I now believe we
have a solution in search of a problem.
I had a chance to measure a used set of Rotary Aviation TES orings a few
months back when cracking an engine.
I (stupidly) did not write down the measurements. I do recall they were
quite a bit larger than 0.093" for the inner oring.
There was quite a bit of discussion about this years ago here.
Let's try to be a little scientific about this:
CAN SOMEONE MEASURE A NEW SET!
Based on Brian's nopistons pics, I would guess that the orings were too
large a diameter and at higher temperature opened up
enough of a gap between the housings to be exposed directly to the
exhaust gases and split (long before stock orings normally would).
<RANT~>
Here are a few pics of various housings I had handy this evening, with
the same oring, in this case .093" x 9.000 ID PFA inner oring from
Creavey.
TES-S591NA- oring fits like a snug glove, does not require anything to
stretch or hold it in place. It can turned upside down and shaken hard...
TES-S3-12A - oring fits like a slightly loose glove after the previous,
stays in place upside down and shaken.
TES-S4-87NA - usual PITA, will not sit until I have stretched it
repeatedly, guaranteed to fall out without halomar or vaseline in the
groove, possibly even then.
Same as other 86-88 NAs.
BTW - Mazda's engine assembly petroleum jelly supposedly has the
consistency of Vaseline out of the freezer.
TES-S6-93T - also a PITA, same as previous.
It appears that the inner oring groove castings differs between
generations...
BTW, the post I made months ago regarding rotor letter codes...If you
are mixing and matching rotors, I would weigh them...
My (new) gram accuracy scale, in a small sample, has shown rotors with
the same letter code "may" NOT be a good match...
(contrary to accepted common knowledge)
Running out of "..."
-Cheers,
Cary
Cary, Brian and all,
My response to Brian sat un-sent on my lap top for quite a while because
I didn't want to come across as arrogant and condescending, I am certainly
not trying to trash Brian. My point is people have to take responsibility.
Yes, I will be checking everything I can to the best of my ability before it
goes into service in my plane. Can I measure tolerances yes, will I yes?
Why, because I have a responsibilty to do so? A responsibility to my family,
to any passengers I might carry, to everyone I fly over and to people like
you and Paul who are working very hard to make rotary experimental aviation
the best that it can be.
RWS should not be expected to say "our product is
perfect and does not need to be checked for quality prior to installation".
Yes they have a responsibility to check their products and the third party
products they resell. But Brian can not harp on Tracy's QC if he has not
performed the same QC checks himself. It is unfortunate these failed o-rings
were not checked prior to installation as then we would have an answer to
the cause of this problem rather than just having to guess. You speculate
that the o-rings in Brians pictures were "too large a diameter", so what
were they doing in there ? You can't say it is not my fault if you haven't
checked yourself.
I am sure if I checked a product and found it to be out of
spec then the vendor from whom I puchased it from would happily exchange it
for an in spec one, they don't want failures with their products either.
(RWS sent me a choke and instructions at no cost to fix a problem I didn't
know existed) I also don't see why this is considered a PITA, if you rebuild
the engine in your Ford econo box don't you measure your bores, ring gap
clearances, bearing gaps, valve spring heights etc., etc.? If you want to
boost the performance a bit don't you match the weights, port and polish
etc. ? In the rotary don't we measure a myriad of other components ? If
these are seen as PITA then I question if this part of a project wouldn't
be better served by a Lycosaurus from Mattituck.
Having said that though I
would also say that from a business point of view, that if one sells
o-rings for a rotary engine then it would be a good idea to package it in a
manner such as Paul suggested or at least include instructions explaining
the process of and need for, shaping the rings. Creavy sells an o-ring of
the size you request, not the size and shape, so you can expect them to ship
them in a way that is less than ideal for our engines. It is certainly is
not beyond Brians skills to shape them for a few days and if he is building
enough engines then I don't see a problem with having several sets on hand
on a forming board.
Brian also has the added responsibilty to do this as he
is selling this service/product. People come to him because he is an expert
at what he does and that expertise is what his customers are paying him for.
A gain Brian and all, I am not in any way trying to trash anyone, Brian found
a problem that needs addressing and thankfully he has been public with this,
but it is not about blaming someone else and that is how I read his posts.
John Gibbons
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