Subject: Carburetor Choice
From: Rotary Engine
Date: 7/22/2007, 1:36 PM
To: AARotary Engine




   Paul,

   I think everyone can agree that the rotary conversion needs a
   cost-effective fuel system that does not involve spending thousands of
   dollars.

   When we start with a stock Mazda engine we have an immediate problem
   with cowl clearance with the bulky intake manifold. This can be solved
   two ways -- either fabricating a new low-profile manifold, or cutting
   peripheral ports into the housing and adding a couple of tubes onto
   which we can mount two motorcycle carbs.

   If we don't want carbs, two runners can easily be made that loop over
   the top of the engine. Similarly for the carbs, the velocity stacks can
   loop over the top.

   I think the p-port is a very attractive option in this regard, in terms
   of time and effort -- compared to fabricating an intake manifold with
   four to six runners. Plus you get a good shot of extra power in the
   bargain.

   Now that we have air, a lot of options have been suggested for fuel --
   everything from your slide throttle carb, to EFI, to mechanical
   injection, to motorcycle carbs, to the picaxe with mass flow sensor (and
   I'm probably leaving out a few others).

   You have complained about the high cost of the motorcycle carbs. The
   Mikuni HSRs can be bought new on ebay for $370 apiece. That's less than
   $750 for the two. The Keihin CV 51s go for about $450 apiece.

   Is that too much? How much does an aftermarket ECU cost? More than that.
   Even the smallest Ellison costs $825 -- you would need two.

   Now what about your ultimate DIY ideas -- the slide carb and the picaxe
   computer. The slide carb sounds like a fine idea, but this is hardly a
   proven carburetor. It has never even run on an engine, we don't even
   know if it is going to leak fuel, much less how well it will actually
   meter fuel.

   Yes, with a fuel injection system, using the slide throttle just for air
   is fine. But as a carb, this is a long-term development project at best.
   Are you really saving anything if you spend many hours tinkering with
   this and getting it to work.

   And what about the picaxe? This uses the mass air sensor to meter fuel.
   What happens if the sensor fails? Your engine stops, that's what
   happens. At least with the mega squirt and Tracy's box they are not
   wholly dependent on a single sensor. And this too is something that's
   going to require a lot of hours to develop, write the code, build the
   box with connections etc.

   Neither of these options is even remotely realistic for the average
   amateur airplane builder who simply wants a reasonably-priced engine
   that is going to run dependably from the get go.

   Even a megasquirt or an aftermarket ECU is not ideal, in my opinion
   because it relies on the electrical system for getting fuel to the
   engine. This may be fine for your car, but it is not great for a flying
   machine.

   I think you would be doing the whole rotary community a great service if
   you concentrated your efforts on building and testing a p-port engine
   with motorcycle carbs and a flywheel magneto. This would be a true
   aircraft engine using proven, simple technology -- and people would then
   have a viable option to a Lycoming, which is mostly what they want.


   Regards,

   Gordon.

   Nice summary. A couple of corrections. You don't need a mass air
   flow sensor
   with the PICAXE as you can use the same solid state manifold
   pressure sensor Tracy
   uses. The PICAXE is so cheap ten can be bought for the price of
   Tracy's system.
   However it requires a bit of computer expertise to use them. Same
   goes for
   the Megasquirt but it is a bit more overkill and a lot more
   expensive than
   the PICAXE.

   I am not really serious about the dual carb system using the slide
   throttle and needle
   valves. It would require a total redesign and much R&D. On that we
   agree.

   Changing Doc's oblong slide for a round hole slide with the ramp system
   is my leading choice. That was the very first idea way back when.
   That combined
   with some sort of adjustable fuel pressure regulator is super simple
   and no
   functionally different than dual Mikuni 48 mm. It uses regulated low
   pressure
   instead of vacuum to inject the fuel. I will probably test it on the
   RX8 p-port
   engine.

   Forget smaller carbs. If you are going to go to the trouble of
   building a p-port why
   shoot your self in the foot by going to smaller carbs to save a few
   bucks. I don't
   recommend any carb shy of 48 mm as you will take a big HP hit. See
   the enclosed
   dyno chart for both the Power Sport p-port engine with 1 3/4 inch
   dia. 28 inch long
   runners and the ACRE p-port engine using the 2 inch dia. 28 inch
   long runners.

   Carbs also have the drawback of having to devise a way of leaning them.

   The Mikuni 48 mm is also not easy to tune with several jets that
   must be adjusted
   in size. In fact most carbs are over kill as far as the accuracy of the
   mixture over a wide range of conditions that are not found in
   aircraft use.
   One example is the accelerator pump. Aircraft engines do not accelerate
   at the same rate as car engines due to the rotational inertia of the
   prop.
   Aircraft engines spend the vast majority of the time at WOT with one
   load.
   Starting mixture enrichment can be accommodated by increase the fuel
   pressure.

   BTW turn the engine over with the starter BEFORE turning
   on the electric fuel pump or the engine will flood.

   With Teflon O-rings the round hole slide with the ramp system will seal
   perfectly however sealing perfectly may not be needed as the only
   way for
   leaking fuel to get out is into the engine. No different than the
   slide throttle
   with electronic fuel injection. Same situation.

   Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.

   Gordon,

   I take exception to your worry about the fuel and electrical system
   failing.  A duel fuel pump and duel battery system would be
   necessary, but would be a straight forward and inexpensive
   ($300-400) installation.  In fact,  any engine installation
   dependent on primary electric power should have duel batteries.

   Joel



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