What size type of injectors should I be using?  Has anyone used units
from SDS?  They also have the bosses that can be welded into the intake.
I am using  2nd gen P Port configuration.  Does Tracy's controler
require a specific type of injector?  I believe I need 4 injectors?
Thanks for any help

Joe Berki
Limo EZ

There is a whole range that will work Joe. I kind of like the new ones
that are small in diameter like the RX8 style. Easier to mount. I think
Bosch pioneered this type.

Here is almost everything  you ever wanted to know about injectors :)
For a given HP injectors are pretty much the same. There are two kinds of
coils. Shock and hold and simple. Check with Tracy on which type he prefers.

You can tell by the resistance measurement.
The yellow RX8's are 14 ohms which is probably the simple kind.
The Ford is 14.6 ohms.
The 13B is 2.3 ohms which is the shock and hold style. Nippon Denso.
The MSD, GM, Lucas, etc., etc. is 2.1 ohms also shock and hold.

The 555 type EFI controller will use the simple kind.

Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.

Fuel Injector Flow Rates compiled by steve@aems.com.au


Injectors listed by flow rate, from lowest to highest

Manufacturer___Part Number__cc per____Colour_____Ohms___lbs per___Est___Press__Vehicle Engine
_____________________________minute_______________________hour_____HP____Kpa
**********************************************************************************************
Nippon Denso__________________250__yellow/orange__1.7_____24.5____50.0____255___Toyota____22RTE
Nippon Denso__________________250_________green__13.8_____24.5____50.0____290--Toyota_____4AGE
Nippon Denso__________________250________violet  13.8_____24.5____50.0____290  Toyota_____4AGE
Nippon Denso__________________250_________brown  13.8_____24.5____50.0____255  Toyota_____3SGE
Nippon Denso__________________251________violet  13.8_____24.5____50.2____290  Toyota____1UZFE
Nippon Denso__________________282___light green  13.8_____27.6____56.4____290  Toyota_____2RZE
Nippon Denso__________________282________violet  13.8_____27.6____56.4____290  Toyota____2TZFE
Bosch________0 280 150 802____284_________________________27.8____56.8____300  Volvo  B200Turbo
Nippon Denso__________________295________yellow___2.7_____28.9____59.0____255  Toyota_____7MGE
Nippon Denso__________________295________pink_____1.6_____28.9____59.0____255  Toyota____22RTE
Nippon Denso__________________295________green___13.8_____28.9____59.0____255  Toyota_____3SGE
Bosch________0 280 150 811____298_________________________29.2____59.6____350  Porsche__944 Turbo
Bosch________0 280 150 200____300_________________________29.4____60.0____300  BMW________
Bosch________0 280 150 335____300_________________________29.4____60.0____300  Volvo B230 Turbo
Bosch________0 280 150 945____300_____red/brown___________29.4____60.0_________Ford MotorSport
Nippon Denso__________________315_______pink_____13.8_____30.9____63.0____290  Toyota_____3SGE
Nippon Denso__________________315___light green__13.8_____30.9____63.0____290  Toyota_____7MGE
Bosch________0 280 150 402____338_________________________33.1____67.6____300  Ford________
Bosch________0 280 155 009____346_________________________33.9____69.2____300  Saab____Turbo
Bosch________0 280 150 951____346_________________________33.9____69.2____300  Porsche______
Nippon Denso__________________365____red/orange___2.9_____33.9____73.0____255  oyota____4AGZE
Bosch________0 280 150 024____380_________________________37.3____76.0____300  Volvo_____B30E
Bosch________0 280 150 036____380_________________________37.3____76.0____300  MB________4.5L
Bosch________0 280 150 043____380_________________________37.3____76.0____300  BMW__________
Bosch________0 280 150 835____397_________________________38.9____79.4____300  Chrysler____
Nippon Denso__________________430_________black___2.9_____42.2____86.0____255  Toyota__7MGTE,3SGTE
Bosch_________R 280 410 144___434_________________________42.5____86.8____300  Bosch R___Sport
Bosch_________0 280 150 400___437_________________________42.8____87.4____300  Ford_____4.5L
Bosch_________0 280 150 401___437_________________________42.8____87.4____300  Ford_________
Bosch_________0 280 150 041___480_________________________47.1____96.0____300  MB_______6.9L
Bosch_________0 280 150 403___503_________blue____0.5_____49.3___100.6____300  Ford_________


Conversion From cc per min to lbs per hour to HP.
500cc per minute is approximately equal to 49lbs per hour which is equal to approximately 100 HP.

Common conversions
 lbs/hour = cc per minute / 10.2
 lbs per hour = HP / 2.04
 cc per minute  = lbs per hour x 10.2
 cc per minute = HP x 5
 HP = cc per minute / 5
 HP = lbs per hour x 2.04

Note: This is a rough guide for conversions and flow rates.
If you have any information that would help in increasing the quality of this data base,
please send email to steve@aems.com.
Paul,

Thank you for the info.  I need 4 injectors for redundancy.  Should they
be sized so that I use all 4 ie 4 250cc injectors Nippon Denzo or 4
503cc injectors Ford and leave 2 of them off?  There is no primary and
secondary with a P Port?  Thanks again

Joe Berki
Limo EZ

That is a good question Joe. Tracy has a fail safe mode
where if one of the injectors fails the other can go to a wide pulse
width. The question how wide and what injector.
Some injectors can handle 100 HP each and others  can only handle 50 HP each.

I would still use four no matter what. I would use 60 HP injectors as
a minimum. 4 x 60 = 240 HP.

I am thinking of a way of throwing
a switch in the 555 system to go to wide pules mode and use the 100 HP injectors.
It would be good  if you could get full power with one failed injector.
I don't think you can do it with the RX8 injectors but I don't have any flow
data on them yet.

Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.

Paul,

Check these out.  I have purchased four of them.  Fast, small, large flow
and, are OK for flex fuel.   Simens DEKA IV. Four little holes with good
performance even at low flow rates.

Specs here.
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/144_146/products_id/448

Calculation. Given max.  injection duration (intake cycle) equals <120
degrees.  Actually about 105 degrees to avoid port overlap.  At 6,000
rpm, it requires 1/100 of a second or  0.01 second. to complete 120
degrees of arc. Think of this as the intake event.

These  injectors turn on in 1.14 ms and off in .85 ms.  Total is 2.99 ms
or call it 3 milli secs.

or  0.003 of a second.  Even at 8000 rpm and 100 degrees of injection
duration (delay start of injection until exhaust port closes),  there is
still gobs of time to inject the require amount of fuel needed while
keeping the duty cycle low.  If one  injector craps out the remaining
injector duty cycle can be doubled without a sweat.

Doug in Japan


Wow!!! you got that right Doug. 60 pounds an hour is 10 gallons an hour per injector.
40 gallons an hour for four. At a BSFC of .6 that is 400 HP!!!

Great injector. Small too. Ideal for P-ports.

I am sold. I am buying four. No use messing around with marginal RX8 injectors.

--
Paul Lamar ...No rotor no motor.

Paul,

Great choice. You will enjoy them.   Some people I know run them at
higher PSIs and claim as much as 90 lbs/hour per injector which is way
over our needs.

For direct placement in the housing this is what I plan to try:

Bore two angled holes in the rotor housing on each side and parallel to,
the oil injector boss. Next  lightly press and ring weld two alumunum
25mm dia. 15mm long plugs in the holes with the low melt point new alloy
brazing.  After that, end mill bore a 19mm dia hole through the center
of the  plugs and bottom it out against the back side of the metal rotor
housing line.  Next  take a 19mm OD dia/ 15mm ID pipe and ream the
inside out a hair as well as turn the outside down  for clearance.  An
upper and lower (inside- outside) O-ring groove needs to be cut on the
pipe. The injection hole will be about 5mm dia and slightly tapered from
the inside.   This will put the injector close to the inner housing to
take advantage of the wide spray cone, but far enough back not to
contact the Apex seal.    The 19mm pipe complete with O-rings is hand
pressed into place.  Properly done it can`t leak water either into or
out of the housing.  If desired, a set screw can be installed in the
outer boss perpendicular to the injector mount pipe to assure it does
not move.    Finished with the injector installed into this pipe,  bring
the wire and fuel rail connector real close to the housing so I believe
the manifolds can wrap over head.  Wires and well and fuel lines can
come from the cool side.

The challenge is adjusting the best moment to begin the injection event,
but the advantage is that we put the small slide throttles ( yes thats
plural) right smack up against the housings.

I having a big steel jig being made now by the local shop so I can can
rotate the rotor housings to one of  five fixed  positions within it
accurately and repeatly.  I need various holes on each side and top of
the test engine.  I`ll send pictures when the jig is done


Doug

IMHO I think you will be disappointed in relatively low pressure (50 psi) direct injection
Doug. The fuel does not have enough time to evaporate. The new direct injection
diesel systems are using upward of 20,000 psi. First picture. There is a measurable decrease
in BSFC by injecting at the start of the runner. Second picture. Racing Beat reported
this during dyno runs. Also the fuel cools the air in the runner increasing power.

No harm in trying again however. One can always go back.