> > Paul,
> > > I read that portion of the book too. Seems like they just rough
mill
> > them then final grind and lap for accuracy. Then again this book was
> > written in 1969 when cnc equipment sucked so I bet it is much
different
> > today. Also by there manufacturing methods back then lead to much
> > variance in the rotors as written about in the compression ration of
the
> > rotors in that turbo 2 design paper you sent out. So two point
> > approximations and such are worthless these days.
> > > I think aluminum is the wrong direction to go. Talk of any of
the exotic
> > alloys that it would take to make it work well will never happen and
we
>
> all know it in terms of cost,saftey,etc. With aluminums greater
> > expansion rate you would have to increase the clearances which means
in
> > start up and part throttle the thing is going to blowby a bunch.
> > Aluminum does have a fatigue life and is just to damn soft to take
any
> > kind of oops factor either from assembly or coughing seals. Titanium
is
> > way to prohibitive after re-reading the nasa paper on it useage.
Special
> > coatings on the seal grooves and needing chemical machining to take
off
> > the out layers after heat treating is just unrealistic. Like I said
> > before Steve B. gave me an idea to do a furnace brazed sheetmetal
rotor
> > after he mentioned they did it on the side housing with good results.
> > Welding is good but brazing is better since you would be able to get
all
> > the fins/vanes/whathaveyou
to join instead of just the outer edges
where
> > the weld can go. A multi-piece steel rotor brazed I think is the
> > direction we should concentrate on. The only thing to beat steel in
> > strength to weight, modulus to weight,etc is carbon fibers and
titaniums
> > which are not usable. If you went the extra mile and made the rotors
out
> > of 4340 Hardened to RC 48-50 the yield is 180kpsi and ultimate is
> > 230kpsi. Not much is going to touch that. 1020 or 4130 is more
realistic
> > but with steel you have a ton of choices.
> > > Rob Woods
> > > The problem is wall stiffness. To get it down to the weight of
aluminum the > walls would have to be one third as thick as cast iron. About
the thinnest one > can cast in iron is about 3/16 of an inch. That means most
of the walls and webs > would be 1/16 thick. I don't think that is
going
to be stiff enough for the > rotor faces.
> > > What is the NASA paper you are referring to?. Can you upload a
copy?
> > > If Ted wants to do Titanium let him try.
> > > BTW Rob please set your left margin to zero so it does not screw
up the forwarding.
> > > Paul Lamar
> > > As far as the ringing is concerned I am not to familiar with the
ins and
> > outs but the connection of the ringing would be pathed through the
roll
> > pins of the gear, journal bearings,etc so I would assume that would
take
> > care of it. I am unaware of any system in an engine that doesnt
benefit
> > from stiffness. I am against titanium for the reasons i listed in
the
> > reply i just sent.
> > > Rob Woods
> > > It is local panel vibration due to the shock of combustion.
> > The roll pin loads would
definitely be different due to the reduced
> > mass.
> > > Paul Lamar
>
> Rob,
> Can you upload that nasa paper you're reffering to?
>
> Thank You
> Ted
>
> Paul,
>
> Dont know what the zero margin thing is. I am just responding in the space
yahoo gives me and I dont see any options for this. Please explain to me what I
have to do.
>
> I dont follow you on your dimension conversion. If you were to cast the
rotor out of aluminum to be equal in stiffness (since cast iron is only a
little
above aluminum) the aluminum would have to be about 2 times the thickness since
the UTS and YS are about 1/2 to 1/3 the strength of nodular cast iron. If you
were to go from cast iron to steel the E value is about 2.5 times greater. Not
to mention you can get really high UTS and YS number out of it. But lets
jst say
we do it out or 1020 then
the UTS and YS are about the same but still a stiffer
material. So you could go do half the thickness of the cast iron webbing
which i
think is more than enough. The centrifual loads wont effect anything but the
base ring area so all you have to do it provide a 1000 psi load on the
combustion chamber in FEA to see what the deformation is which I dont think
would be that great. Point being with the increased stiffness and strength of
steels over aluminums I dont think that it would be any kind of a problem to go
thinner wall. If anything you could always go to a 15 pin for additional
strutting if it is an issue. Until it gets modelled and worked out it is all
conjecture. I just know which very strong alloys it wont be much of an issue.
>
> 1000psi x 15in^2 = 15,000lbs load (but this is only peak) supported over
the face thickness and the 4 webs. For comparison a AN-NAS 1/4 bolt can take
about 5000 lbs of load
in double sheer. That area time three pales in comparison
to the amount of metal on a rotor and sheer forces are the worst kind in terms
of material strength(parallel vs perpendicular to grain axis).
>
> I sent that paper to you about 4 months ago or maybe it was the one that
was too big for you to take. I will copy and paste the good and bad about
the ti
rotor they did. The negatives outweigh the positive since the amount of post
work is prohibitively expensive for small scall operations.
>
> Do you have any scarpped rx-8 rotors handy anyone? I would like to get 2
to cut apart and disect for comparitive engineering purposes.
>
> Rob Woods.
>
> That explains it. Yahoo uses their own email program I think
> and I don't think you can set the margin.
>
> Aluminum density is .1 pounds per cubic inch and cast iron is around .3
pounds
> per cubic inch. Strength
at room temp per se is probably not the problem
as 7075 T6 is 80 kips. Strength at 500 F is an issue and that is why you
want to
use Be/al allow not to mention the density is .076 pound per cubic inch.
>
> If the aluminum was 2 times the thickness of a cast iron panel ignoring
modulus of elasticity for the moment stiffness would be about 100 times stiffer
as it is a fourth power function of the panel thickness. We are not talking
tensile stiffness here. We are taking about panel stiffness. Roughly thickness
to the fourth power. You cannot go to half the thickness of cast iron with
steel
and expect it to be as stiff.
>
>
> http://www.engineersedge.com/beam_bending/beam_bending1.htm
> This is a simplistic way of looking at it because I can't find
> simple steel panels uniform pressure loaded on the internet so far.
>
> Plus the panel support structure enters into the
equation.
> Nothing less than a good FEA is going to help us out here.
> A simple FEA would be a 3 by 3 by 3 box with one side open.
> A constant pressure applied to the opposite panel would give
> good insight. What we are really interested in is the panel resonant
> frequency.
>
>
> Paul Lamar
Guys,
Just gimme a drawing or 3D model of mazda rotor and I'll do all FEA
(it's fairly simple and I have ANSYS, NASTRAN/PATRAN, ABAQUS at my disposal)
and the rest. I just don't have time to fiddle with equation driven curves.
If one will send me a rotor (I will send halfs of it back) I will simply 3D
scan
it and make 3D model myself.
Rob - would you email that paper to me please? nevaracing @ mail.ru
Here some very tricky parts are made out of Ti alloys... It's not simple
and very cheap but it is doable.
I'm not saying that steel is worse than Ti or other way around. To
me
it's just a matter of material and technology available.
Thank You
Ted
OK Ted send me your mailing address by email and I will keep it private.
I'll send you a rotor. I don't need it back. Just take some digital
pictures
of it after you cut it in half. And the stp file from Solid Works.
Paul Lamar
Guys,
The nasa file is 20Meg and i cannot send it over email. I could send it
to you through IM in about 3 minutes if you have an address you want to
give me. Other wise you will just have to deal with this copy and paste.
I understand ti can be worked with but in this case I think it is above
and beyond just welding stuff together. Weld it and you'll have to heat
treat it which brings up all sorts of problems. Cast it and the same.
The few drawbacks that it has are large ones.
Also in this paper they were getting a reliable .375 BFSC and they had
realistic plans to get it down to .3
Rob Wood
Rob,
I am searching for some used Renesis rotors right now as well in Japan.
I'll let you know what I find out.
Doug in Japan.
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