--
 I suspect Tracy's PIC has its hands full at high RPM
 reading this :) The single pulse by it self is probably
 rotor one. The wide pulse is probably rotor 2.

 I have no idea what Tracy is doing. He probably
 considers the single pulse is the same as the
 old 2nd gen crank angle sensor.

 The easy way is to use 2 or more sensors, one for
 each rotor, with only one tit on the wheel.

 The pictures say it all. The router motor and
 Harbor Fright (:)) motor control is the hot tip.
 This thing runs smooth to ungodly RPM's (up to
 22,000) thanks to Jim Poole's accurate machining.

 If you want a RX8 trigger wheel hub and you need to ask
 the price you can't afford it :) I have a spare one.

 It is putting out a very strong signal with .2 inch
 between the sensor and the wheel. On the order of
 8 volts peak to peak. That is a stock, high buck, RX8 sensor.
 Ill try it soon with the cheap $16 ABS sensor.

 Be careful. Don't let it come apart. It can kill.

 Paul Lamar

 Paul,

  That's great progress.  I would be interested to see what effect a
  non-concentric timing wheel would have.  I found that mine had a
  .0012-.0013" variation in the gap.  I decided to go ahead and switch over
  to
  the Renesis water pump which will use the Renesis trigger wheel and hub.
 This should cure the problem with changing gap, and possibly cure the
  miss
  too.  It sure won't hurt anything.  ;-)

  Mark S.

  That out of round is not going to help. It will vary the amplitude
  of the signal once per rev. Jim Mederer tells me that is a common
  problem with the e-shaft on the 3 rotor.


  Good idea to go back to the 2nd gen CAS. Does Tracy have a different
  software package for that or will it work with either?

  I have no idea what Tracy is doing but reading the RX8 trigger wheel
  and firing a three rotor is not an easy  thing to do in software.

  How are you coming with the Hytech ?

  Paul Lamar

  Paul,

  We had our two grandsons for the weekend, so I haven't had time to mess
  with
  it.  It was all I could do to keep them from burning down the house.  I
  did
  manage to slip away and go to the airport on Sunday for a few hours (as
  described above).

  Anyway, I'm a bit confused on the Hytech's purpose.  I know it is a data
  logger, but you have connected some sensors.  Is this to do compression
  checks, or verify manifold vacuum, or both?  I didn't want to exceed the
  limits of the sensors by hitting them with 100 psi if they are meant for
  vacuum.

  Also, with the water pump off, I won't be testing anything for a while.

  Mark

  Those are for manifold vacuum and a crank angle sensor fed into
  one of the A to D.

  Your right. The sensors would blow up. These are the same sensors
  Tracy's use in the EC2.

  What you will get is a lot of raw data that looks like this.

  BTW I don't think the 15 thou run out on the end of the
  e-shaft is the cause of the miss. At what RPM is it missing?

  I think you should borrow my RX8 trigger wheel hub and test
  the EC2 with out the engine running. I think it has a software
  problem over about 6500 RPM. You won't need the water pump
  for that as they engine will not be running. If the injector
  pulse width is not getting wider that is the problem.

  In fact come to think about it I suspect Tracy's system
  quits working after the torque peak as it is based solely
  on manifold press and max HP comes well after peak torque
  AND peak man press. If it has trouble sensing RPM
  over 6000 it will not feed the additional fuel needed into
  the engine at the same man press at the higher RPMs. Particularly
  since you moved the torque peak down.

  A car EFI systems uses a mass air flow sensor so
  air flow is proportional to RPM as WELL as throttle
  opening.

  That explains a lot.

  We need to hook up the Hytek and see what is going
  on in Tracy's system over 6000 RPM with out the engine
  running.

  It is like trying to determine what some one is thinking
  solely by observing their actions :) The hood is welded
  shut :)

  I have an early EC2 from the days when nobody went over
  6000 RPM. Tracy has changed the software from that time.
  We tried it on the p-port eng on the dyno but could not get
  it tuned. We gave up at $650 a day and put the Weber on.
  Perhaps we were having the same problem.

  It might be interesting for me to hook it
  up with the CAS simulator and see what it does
  with my scope.

  The bottom line is what does yours do?

  Paul Lamar


  Paul,

  I agree, it would be very helpful to do a bench test on my EC-2.  Bobby
  Hughes has a scope we can use and I'm pretty sure I can rig it up using my
  trigger wheel and my router/speed controller.  Bob Darrah could fab an
  adapter to fit my router.

  There are two reasons I think this may be related.  First, I can get
  different results by changing the gap between the timing wheel and CAS
  pickup.  Second, Tracy recently commented that he had a misfire caused by
  vibration of his CAS trigger bracket.  He built a stiffer bracket and the
  miss was gone.  As I see it, a wobbling trigger wheel would cause the same
  symptoms.

  So, I think I will finish installing the Renesis water pump with new crank
  hub and see if there is any improvement in how it runs.  I can then do the
  bench test if it still runs poorly.  Keep in mind that before changing
  engines this ignition setup would give me 7200-7300 rpm during the first
  few seconds of my takeoff run.  So, something has obviously changed, I
  just
  don't know what it was.

  It may be that my exhaust system is too restrictive and is causing exhaust
  gases into the intake charge at higher rpm.  Lynn Hanover has stated that
  the P-port engines don't tolerate exhaust restriction well.  That makes
  sense as a restrictive exhaust could force exhaust gases into the adjacent
  intake during the overlap period.  Come to think of it the rpm at which
  the
  engine began rough-running dropped after I installed the new muffler.  I
  may  be on to something here...  So, this may not even be ignition
  related after all.

  One question, what size air inlet should I have feeding the three 1-7/8"
  ID
  runners?  Currently, I have a 3" SCAT hose with K&N filter.

  Mark

  I'll loan you my hub. No need for Bob to make one.

  Well if you just go on area alone three runners are  8.28 square inches.
  3 inch scat is 7 square inches. There is also skin friction drag pressure
  loss in the tube due to velocity squared so I would go up a size or two.
  There is 3.25 OD and 3.5 OD SCAT and SCEET.

  SCAT is rough inside. SCEET is smoother but the inner liner
  has been known to come adrift and plug it up. If you switch to
  SCEET sew the inner liner to the outer liner with small diameter
  safety wire.

  Thin wall aluminum tube is best but I think about 3.5 inches OD would be
  needed. You might want to roll your own out of .025" thick aluminum.

  Send me some pictures of the P-port version of the 3 rotor.

  Paul Lamar


  Paul,

  I've enclosed two pictures that show how it all came together.

  You've confirmed that I need to enlarge the size of the intake tube.
  Maybe
  I can get some mandrel bent aluminum tubing and weld the pieces together
  so
  that I only have two small pieces of flex hose.

  Mark

  Nice tangential muffler.
  Can you get a Harbor Freight inspection camera up the exhaust
  pipe far enough to see the small holes in the center pipe?
  Some could be failing.

  Also nice job on the K&W duct on the oil cooler.

  Can I see a picture of the other side of the engine? :)

  Burns Stainless has some .065 wall 3.5 inch OD aluminum
  90 degree bends for $105. Too expensive and too
  heavy.

  Carve it out of Styrofoam, wrap with vinyl electricians
  tape and make a layup. The foam can be dissolved with acetone
  and the tape fished out.

  Paul Lamar

  Paul,

  Yes, I have a Harbor Freight LCD inspection camera and use it regularly.
  I
  can work it up the exhaust to where I can see a few inches into the
  muffler.  So far, everything appears to be in tact internally.

  Mark

  The muffler looks pretty good from the outside. How many holes
  in that center tube and what is the diameter of the holes?
  In other words what is the total area of the holes?

  Somebody, I forget who, said that tangential mufflers can build
  a complex internal pressure field due to the internal vortex.

  The center of the vortex is low pressure while the outside
  of the vortex is higher pressure. If this is true the center
  of the field will be cooler as well. You might be able
  to verify this with one of those non contacting infrared hand held
  temperature gauges. The outer part of the vortex would then
  apply more back pressure on the engine. That is the theory anyway.

  Therefore you might try a separate 2 inch down pipe from the outside
  of the can leading out, down and back. Make it temporary so it can
  be removed and plugged up if it does not help. Leave this for
  later after you have analyzed the electrical situation with the Hytech.

  Robin is out of town on biz but I may be able to come down for a day
  or two next week. Remind me to bring my infrared temp gage.

  Paul Lamar


  Paul,

  That is a generous offer, but I work days (M-F) and our daughter is coming
  to town Wed through Monday (6/16 - 6/21).  I'm not sure what all they
  have planned, but I really want to spend some time with her.  She lives in
  Denver, so I don't get to see her very often.

  I need to order parts in order to get the opto-isolator board wired up and
  ready to go.  You mentioned a Panasonic part, do you have the p/n?

  The tube running through the tangential muffler has 109 slits made with a
  carborundum cutting disc (too &^%*$# difficult to drill holes in
  inconel).  The holes were then spread apart with a punch to form a bunch
 of
  diamond-shaped holes.  So, I would guess that the holes are 1" long and
  3/8"
  at the widest.  I realized too late that it would have been better to
 angle
  the slits to "encourage" the gasses into the inner pipe.  I figured I
  would compensate for that by using lots of holes (slits).  I had thought
  about adding an extra exit, or two.  Or, I could open it up and replace
 the
  2.5" inner pipe with a larger pipe.  Or, I could remove the inner pipe
  altogether.

  Mark

  I sent the jpg with the pin number on it.
  Did you not get it? Here it is again.
  It is a Digi Key CNS 7s something. 77 cents each.

  Your muffler could be acting like an air compressor
  with the hot air swirling around what amounts to a bunch
  of cowl flaps. Air could be flowing into the exhaust pipe :)
  Just add another exit and see if it helps.

  Paul Lamar

 Paul,

 OK, the opto's are on their way.

 Mark

 At 250 RPM and .05 inch the signal is 5 volts peak to peak.
 If the engine starts it must be close enough.
 The scope picture is one half of a revolution.

 Paul Lamar

 Paul,

What is the output voltage at around 7k rpm with a gap of .0050?

Mark

About 25 volts peak to peak but don't try to  cut that down. That
is Tracy's job.

The picture says it all. The upper character line line
on the scope say it is 1 volt per division but
I am using a 10X probe so it is really 10 volts
per division. Hence 25 volts.

The sweep is set to 1 ms per division
so as you can see there are about 8 division
between rotor one and back to rotor one. 8 ms
is about 7500 RPM.

Anything you might do to preserve the
wave form AND cut it down will affect the engine starting.

Set the EFI computer up on the bench. You can simulate the injectors
with a high wattage 5 ohm resistor connected to 12 Volts.
The bottom of the resistor will be switched on and off by
Tracy's computer. Use opto circuits  on the injector signals and
feed them into the digital inputs on the Hytek.

Connect the CAS simulator. No need to connect
the manifold pressure sensor hoses at this time. Leave them open.
That simulates WOT.

I think you have other problems and nothing to do with the CAS.
If you are using an MSD ignition or something like that
you can use the Hytek to check the integrity of
the signal coming out of Tracy's computer.

Set the Hytek (poor man's storage scope) sample rate
to 50,000 samples per second.

You only need to run it for a few seconds as it will
acquire a mass of data on your hard disk very quickly.

This way merely checks to see if the ign pulse
is going out in a timely fashion. In that case use
opto circuit and feed the 5 volt output pulses to digital inputs
on the Hytek. The data will show any missing pulses
if any and the width if it is greater than. 1/50,000
of a second.

Paul Lamar