Of interest possibly: My wife's '05 RX-8 (36,000 mi) was towed
  in to Mazda
  for the fourth time in three years for a starting problem.
  Starter spins
  engine like crazy, but no firing takes place. Engine finally
  "floods", or
  battery dies. There is a secret warranty on this engine that
  extends the
  warranty of the drive train to 80 or 90,000 mi. They have
  decided to replace
  the engine with a reman. Svc mngr says that it is a seal
  problem, probably
  due to the low mileage.


  Herb Karkheck


  You sometimes need to take what they say with a grain of salt.

  I had heard a rumor about the early RX8's not having enough apex
  seal oil and wearing out prematurely. Mazda changed the metered
  amount around 2006 I think.

  I add 1/2 oz of two cycle oil per gallon in my 2004 with only
  30,000 miles and I have had no problems so far.

  Within a week of getting it... it flooded to the point of not
  starting. I think Mazda reprogrammed the computer to solve that
  problem. It has not happened since.


Morning, Paul...

Just a long FYI...I have 70,000 miles on  my 2004 RX8 (delivered in July
2003) and also use the 2 cycle oil with it every time I add gas. I do still
have that flooding problem however, even after the "computer change".
Usually when I forget and run the engine from cold for just a minute or less
(like when moving it out of the way to move the Long EZ which is also still
in my garage).

However, I don't use the modified procedure they suggest since the computer
change to get it started again. I use a slightly modified procedure that I
heard was what the dealer uses in these conditions. Basically all the
computer change did was change the program so that when the accelerator
pedal is depressed to the floor, the fuel pump is shut off so the engine is
not getting any more gas and has a chance to clear itself.

The procedure that the dealer uses, if you bring it in, is slightly
different than the one the modified manual instructions state (they stapled
a new page in my manual with new instructions when they changed the
program). I've been using the so-called dealer's method instead of the
manual's, and it works every time.

The dealers instructions include removing the fuel pump fuse (guess they
don't trust their computer program, or that their mechanics can press the
accelerator to the floor), disconnecting the air pump plug (on top, on the
passenger's side of the engine...they say it's to protect the cat converter
from
explosions) then alternately cranking for 10 seconds and letting it rest for
1 minute...do this 4 times. Replace the fuse, and start it normally...never
touch the accelerator during the entire process. Plug the air pump back in
and off you go.  As I said. it works every time, even though at times I've
had to go through it two or three times.

Battery gets a bit low, though! I keep a charger handy...

The last time it happened was about three weeks ago. But it's become part of
my life with the car, so I don't even mind it any more.

I'm not sure that that warranty Herb mentioned is "secret".  I got a letter
about it, even though I've never had the car in for any engine problems.  I
also recently got a letter saying that the warranty was extended on the
clutch pedal (not the clutch), of all things!

The only two major problems I've had with the car I never had to take to the
dealers to fix.  One was about 3 years ago when the power steering quit
(just a dirty plug...it's directly under the radiator overflow
tube...cleaned it and it's been working since) and the other was last year
when the heater/air temp control started working intermittently...that was
also an easy fix...just  resoldering the heater control connections on the
heater circuit card (the temp control terminals loosen where they mount on
the card)...but it is a rather involved procedure to get that card out
(removing the center console cover, and the radio/cd player/etc). Took 45
minutes to take it out the first time..but only 15 to put it back together.

Harley



I guess I live a charmed life. Never had another flood :)

It could be an environmental thing. You are in humid Buffalo and mine lives
in So Cal where it is dry most of the time with moderate temperatures. I
keep it in the hangar and only drive it once a month on average. Ever since
I started disconnecting the battery when I turn it off it starts every time
once a month after I hook the battery back up.

I'll check that coolant overflow tube and reroute it if necessary.

The clutch pedal assembly was poor design and workmanship.
One year at 7 Stock people were selling home made reinforced versions. Mine
never gave any problems.... yet :)

Classic case of unattended consequences. Some clever engineer decided to
redesign the clutch pedal so the force on your foot and leg actually went
down when you depressed the clutch.
It worked very well but the stress engineer was out on sick leave :) and it
started to crack around the spot welds.
It also looks like it was made in China.

Simple matter to take it out and tig weld all the various parts together.

All newly designed  cars have teething problems and unattended consequences.
You can probably say that about anything that is newly designed including
cell phones. It is near impossible to test for everything the consumer is
likely to find.

I bought an HTC Windows programmed cell phone and it was the worst peice of
crap I ever spent $400 on. It was a combination of the lousy software and
the heat sensitive touch screen.

BTW Harley I would like a scan of that letter for my files.

Paul Lamar




Gents,

A little information on the RX-8 RENESIS engine issues.

I undertook some "digging" inside Mazda USA and Mazda Australia (my home),
on the oil injection design and consequent issues. The "user" discussions in
the USA appear to centre on engine wear as a result of the low viscosity
5W-20 engine oil grade that has been specified by the manufacturer for USA
vehicles since the engine introduction in 2004. It appears that EPA emission
and consumption requirements have driven this specification.

The speculation is that engine wear issues in the USA have been higher than
the in service engine performance in other markets around the world, causing
Mazda to eventually increase its engine warranty coverage for the RENESIS
engine in the USA to 96 months/100,000 miles. I attended a Mazda dealership
in Australia over the past weekend and thoroughly examined a used and new
RX-8. In Australia, (and elsewhere), Mazda specify in the manual 5W-30
minimum and 10W-30 grade engine oil for the RENESIS. The engine warranty has
not been extended beyond the basic three years in this market, and there
appears to be no consumer concern for the engine wear issue.

The RENESIS oil metering pump lubrication system design is a fine balance
between sufficient lubrication and wear protection of the rotating
components versus oil consumption, emissions issues and rotor deposits. That
is not a design fault in my view, rather a finely engineered solution to the
task at hand, that unfortunately may have been upset by the oil grade
specification change that occurred in the USA market for other reasons.

Oil pre-mixed into the fuel is known to eliminate the observed wear issue.

Paul, that air-cooled SACHS rotary aircraft engine that I sent you some
photos of a few weeks ago uses pre-mix oil as its only oil system.
I think that's testimony enough to apex seal lubrication importance for all
rotary engines using oil from the engine oil system for rotor and seal
lubrication.

The Mazda "Special Service Program" letter (SSP 77) May 2008 to USA
customers on the warranty change can be viewed here;
http://www.racingbeat.com/manuals/rx8warranty.pdf

I have not yet found any information on Mazda changing the oil metering pump
rate in ~2006.
Any information on this change would be appreciated.

If anyone has a link to other service issue documents for the "flooded"
start or recovery procedures, that would also be appreciated.

Regards,
Mark Bower

Hong Kong

I have no factual information on the change. It is just rumor.
I had at first heard they added a third oil injector but
looking at a 2009 model I was unable to find it.

We have been mixing oil with the fuel for at least 15 years
and maybe it goes way back before that. I had been running
Mobile 1 20 W 30 but switched to Idemitsu synthetic rotary engine
oil and as I recall it is 10-30 or something like that.

I am not really sure on those numbers. The apex seals
run 500 F so oil viscosity is probably  not the problem.
Synthetic oils hold up well at 500 F while mineral
oils breakdown at 250 F.

Mazda claims they have not tested synthetics and that is
why they do not recommend them.

I would think the bearings would go out with inadequate viscosity
and that is not happening.

The main function of the apex seal oil is to cool the
apex seal. Wear increase when metals get hotter.
Ceramic seals can run twice as hot.

Paul Lamar