GM= Ecotec
 Harold Lunt

 Yeah, I'm still getting 47MPG with my '92 GEO METRO!!!No
 air,1625 lbs with 1/2 tank fuel, 3 cyl, 5 speed.  Such progress
 we've  been making  :)

 Dan F

 Yup, you have to love progress. 1970 Mazda 1200 Coupe' got 40 MPG.
 Same body as a R100 but a piston engine with carb. R100 had some
 braces to stiffen it, so it was about 100# heavier. 1200 Coupe'
 was about 1700#. Went like stink with a RX2 engine.

 Dale Davies

 Same goes for my RX2. Weight was 2300 pounds while my RX8 is over
 3000 pounds with essentially the same weight engine. There was
 more interior room in the RX2.

 Perhaps we are letting the wrong people make decisions.
 When first introduced, the Volt carried a $41,000 sticker, though
 it qualified for a $7,500 federal tax credit. Is this the GM EV
 allover again? Why are we, the taxpayers, having to subsidize
 these unpopular cars?

 Paul Lamar

 Yeah but ..... did your RX-2 have door guard beams and crash
 worthy,energy absorbing bumpers, catalytic converter and other
 smog paraphernalia and a plethora of air bags plus air
 conditioning, power windows, remote locking, seat belts and crash
 worthy seats ... even cup holders?  That and dozens of other
 mandated features have driven car weight upwards and made engines
 less efficient.

 It is easy to carp about car design but difficult to do in
 practice in todays regulatory environment.

 SD

 My point exactly. My RX2 had air as I recall and seat belts.

 Paul Lamar

 In Russia/Ukraine they have an expression; smart people, stupid
 machine. In the western world we have to make the machine smart to
 protect stupid people.I worked with a fellow whose expression is;
 stupidity is God's way of controlling population growth.In about
 '74 the RX2/3 cars gained 300 to 400 pounds due to impact bumpers.

 Dale Davies

 My point exactly.  "Detroit" is not full of stupid engineers.  They
 are doing their best but when you have to meet all the government
 mandates for door guard beams and 5 MPH bumpers and crush spaces and
 safe gas tanks and airbags and seats that are completely crash worthy
 and doors that will still open and close after various barrier
 crashes at 30 MPH and up and catalytic converters and fuel fume traps
 ... plus all the amenities that the market demands today like dual
 DVD players  and on and on!

 It used to be that there were plenty of cars on the market that
 weighed less than a ton .... nowadays it is almost impossible to find
 anything weighing less than 3000 pounds ... a 50% increase.  Yet,
 when I was a child, 15 highway MPG was considered good and now we see
 lots of cars that can make 30+ MPG on the highway.

 I think the engineering skill is there but the market is entirely
 different as is the regulatory climate.  Remember that old Toyota ad
 slogan that went something like "you asked for it, you got
 it!"  There are lots of really good, clever people at the various car
 companies ..... and they are giving us what we have asked for, both
 in the showrooms and the halls of government.  Does anyone want to
 blame Ralph Nader?

 SD

 How about the EPA and the congress.

 http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Automobile-B-Bruce-Biggs/dp/0525230084

 Paul Lamar


 My note did say "have to build" implying regulations. No insult intended to
 the engineers. It is the general public that is not so brilliant. We all have
 moments where we have a lapse.

 Dale Davies

 Most days I'd like a car that weighs less, eliminating some of the safety
 features..  But once in a while, a car that I'm sharing the road with does
 something really stupid, and then I'm happy with the extra stuff I haul
 around every day...

 I don't drive a big car - a Subaru Outback.  Then to I have a '66 F100.  The
 Outback has all its metal on the inside - the body skin is very light, and
 easily dented.  The F100 has all the metal on the outside - seems tougher,
 but I'm sure it's much less crashworthy.  They are within about 100lbs of
 the same weight.


 If I were always on the road by myself, I'd probably drive something a lot lighter..


 Matt-

 The F100 is a Ford pick up truck for those that may not know.

 Thinner, higher strength steel (may be heat treated after forming. Expensive!) would help.

 Another possibility to reduce the weight is foam certain cavities. Mazda already
 does that in the RX8.


 Paul Lamar

Right..  Here's mine:

Matt

You ought to put a 3 rotor in there Matt :)

Paul Lamar