GM= Ecotec
  Harold Lunt

  Yeah, I'm still getting 47MPG with my '92 GEO METRO!!!No
  air,1625 lbs with 1/2 tank fuel, 3 cyl, 5 speed.  Such progress
  we've  been making  :)

  Dan F

  Yup, you have to love progress. 1970 Mazda 1200 Coupe' got 40 MPG.
  Same body as a R100 but a piston engine with carb. R100 had some
  braces to stiffen it, so it was about 100# heavier. 1200 Coupe'
  was about 1700#. Went like stink with a RX2 engine.

  Dale Davies

  Same goes for my RX2. Weight was 2300 pounds while my RX8 is over
  3000 pounds with essentially the same weight engine. There was
  more interior room in the RX2.

  Perhaps we are letting the wrong people make decisions.
  When first introduced, the Volt carried a $41,000 sticker, though
  it qualified for a $7,500 federal tax credit. Is this the GM EV
  allover again? Why are we, the taxpayers, having to subsidize
  these unpopular cars?

  Paul Lamar

  Yeah but ..... did your RX-2 have door guard beams and crash
  worthy,energy absorbing bumpers, catalytic converter and other
  smog paraphernalia and a plethora of air bags plus air
  conditioning, power windows, remote locking, seat belts and crash
  worthy seats ... even cup holders?  That and dozens of other
  mandated features have driven car weight upwards and made engines
  less efficient.

  It is easy to carp about car design but difficult to do in
  practice in todays regulatory environment.

  SD

  My point exactly. My RX2 had air as I recall and seat belts.

  Paul Lamar

  In Russia/Ukraine they have an expression; smart people, stupid
  machine. In the western world we have to make the machine smart to
  protect stupid people.I worked with a fellow whose expression is;
  stupidity is God's way of controlling population growth.In about
  '74 the RX2/3 cars gained 300 to 400 pounds due to impact bumpers.

  Dale Davies

  My point exactly.  "Detroit" is not full of stupid engineers.  They
  are doing their best but when you have to meet all the government
  mandates for door guard beams and 5 MPH bumpers and crush spaces
and  safe gas tanks and airbags and seats that are completely crash worthy
  and doors that will still open and close after various barrier
  crashes at 30 MPH and up and catalytic converters and fuel fume traps
  ... plus all the amenities that the market demands today like dual
  DVD players  and on and on!

  It used to be that there were plenty of cars on the market that
  weighed less than a ton .... nowadays it is almost impossible to find
  anything weighing less than 3000 pounds ... a 50% increase.  Yet,
  when I was a child, 15 highway MPG was considered good and now we see
  lots of cars that can make 30+ MPG on the highway.

  I think the engineering skill is there but the market is entirely
  different as is the regulatory climate.  Remember that old Toyota
ad  slogan that went something like "you asked for it, you got  it!"
 There are lots of really good, clever people at the various car
 companies ..... and they are giving us what we have asked for, both
 in the showrooms and the halls of government.  Does anyone want to
blame Ralph Nader?

  SD

  How about the EPA and the congress.

  http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Automobile-B-Bruce-Biggs/dp/0525230084

  Paul Lamar

  My note did say "have to build" implying regulations. No insult
intended to  the engineers. It is the general public that is not so
brilliant. We all have  moments where we have a lapse.

  Dale Davies

  Most days I'd like a car that weighs less, eliminating some of the
safety  features..  But once in a while, a car that I'm sharing the
road with does  something really stupid, and then I'm happy with the
extra stuff I haul  around every day...

  I don't drive a big car - a Subaru Outback.  Then to I have a '66
F100.  The  Outback has all its metal on the inside - the body skin
is very light, and  easily dented.  The F100 has all the metal on
the outside - seems tougher,  but I'm sure it's much less
crashworthy.  They are within about 100lbs of  the same weight.

  If I were always on the road by myself, I'd probably drive
something a lot lighter..

  Matt-

  The F100 is a Ford pick up truck for those that may not know.

  Thinner, higher strength steel (may be heat treated after forming.
Expensive!) would help.

  Another possibility to reduce the weight is foam certain cavities.
Mazda already  does that in the RX8.

  Paul Lamar

Right..  Here's mine:

Matt

You ought to put a 3 rotor in there Matt :)

Paul Lamar

Hi Matt,

That looks good. I am an old car guy also.

My father worked for the provincial government. One of the lawyers in the
office went to the government auction and bought an old Bronco, the first
series. It had been in the Forest Service Dept. and bounced off trees and
rocks. The 5 gallon gerry can on the back like you see in the WW2 movies might
have held one gallon. It looked like hell, but was mechanically in good shape.
Dad said when you drove with him, the traffic parted around him like the Red
Sea for the Hebrew people with Moses.

If you drive what looks like beater that survived a demo derby, nobody wants
to take a chance being close. I want to find an old Mack Model B. Tough as
granite and bigger than most citizen vehicles on the road so even in the event
of a tangle your chances are good.

Dale Davies