Subject: Icing and waste spark.
From: rotaryeng
Date: 4/24/2012, 10:07 PM
To: AAAA Put this in the To box


 Hi  Paul.

 1)  Aside  from   perceived  poor  fuel  economy  of  rotary
    engines, what  are  its  disadvantages ?

 2)  You  advised  carbs  and  magnetos.Why  are  they  not  discussed
 here?
 Are  they  not  suitable  for  rotaries ?   If  suitable,   Let's
  have  more  discussions.

 3)  Can  there  be  carb  icing  in  tropical  countries  below  3,
  000 feet ?

 Best regards.
 Ben

 Fuel economy is only 5% higher than an aircraft piston engine.
  This is more than made  up for by the 25% lower cost of auto gas.

 Magnetos are suitable. They will work fine.  They are just too
 costly.   $2000 each new and $400 to $800 re manufactured plus
 cores. People don't want to pay as much for two  aircraft magnetos
 as they pay for the rest of the engine. In some cases much more than
  they payed for the engine. RX8 ignition coils are $25 each for a
 total of $100. One  coil per plug.

 However if I were certifying a rotary I would use aircraft magnetos
 and an aircraft carb. The FAA is much more comfortable with that they
    they are with
 EFI and electronic ignition. In that case the rotary engine would
 pass   certification in a heart beat.

 The best carb (cost verses power) to use is a two barrel 500 CFM Holley
    with a
 leaning kit.

 The FAA will not sign off on your carb engine unless it has carb heat.

 Paul Lamar

    Thanks  Paul.

    I'm  glad  there  is  someone  like  you  who
    has  the  knowledge  and  patience  to  answer
    our  questions.

    Can  there  be  carb  icing  in  tropical  countries  at  an
  altitude  up  to 4,000 feet ?

 Best regards.
 Ben

    At the higher altitudes for sure. The evaporation of the fuel in
  the carb venturi causes a cooling effect.

    Paul Lamar

  Paul,
  My Continental IO 520D has fuel injection- but it is a very basic system
  indeed. One inj per cyl, a regulator, and a mechanical "TPS". It
  looks like it all related back to the manual leaning valve and quite
  possibly the manifold pressure. This system seems remarkably like
  the old FI on the corvettes in the early 60s. Regulators and manual
  flow metering.

  Why would this be a difficult system for the rotary? Before I sell
 my Connie, I might inventory the system and see about maybe a prototype.

  Kevin Alderman

  http://www.vette-vues.com/parts_for_sale.html

  Early Power Sport used mech fuel injection.
  It is still sold for aircraft.
  http://www.airflowperformance.com/html/site_html.html

  Paul Lamar

    These early Rochester FI systems were not received well due to a
 couple of things. The dual quad made more power the next year and
 the injection was very sensitive to atmospheric conditions. It
 required almost daily tuning unless someone really knowledgeable
 worked on it.   Att 1.  The "throttle" in the center is not the
 throttle. It is the choke plate.  The throttle can be more easily
 seen in Att 4.   This works similar to the Bosch/Volkswagon FI and
 the Mazda MCES systems, that use a special volute and flapper to
 measure air flow. The Rochester used the cone in the intake to
 create a pressure drop like a venturi. This was fed over to the
 diaphragm to lift the metering "rod" to add fuel. At idle there
 would be no "vacuum" on the sensing line. As the throttle is
 depressed, the air flow causes a vacuum at the venturi and lifts the
 diaphragm. Different air densities and humidity affected the fuel
 required which was not well compensated for. The Mazda MCES works
 fairly well as the sensor is a form of mass flow and is compensated
 with the computer. The Bosch also works as a basic mass meter, but
 did not have a computer (Rabbit system. different from K-jetronic).
  Any AC system will have compensation for atmospheric condition as a
 requirement for altitude changes.

  Dale Davies

  Hi   Paul,
   No FI system I have ever flown with has allowance for
  temperature or density, only have experience with Cont and Lyc. My
 understanding is they are both a engine speed/throttle/mixture
 position, ie if you have the mixture,prop,throttle to the wall you
 will always get the same fuel flow, regardless of temperature and,or
 altitude. But I love 'em, no carby icing!! BUT if you have clogged
 injectors your fuel flow gauge will tell you you have say 36 gallons
 pre hour at take-off, you will have something less than that,
  because it is not a fuel flow meter but purely a pressure gauge!
 calibrated to indicate fuel flow in gallons per hour. Where it
 become bad is if you have only one injector, you may not notice the
 fuel flow is lower than it should be for that engine, unless you
 have  EGT probes in each exhaust outlet. John Burey

  Hi  Paul,   I was half asleep last missive I think, I had said "if
  you have only one injector", I really wanted to say was that if you
 had
  (one injector partly clogged), you would have a lower fuel flow to that
  cylinder, which you can pick up with a EGT in each exhaust outlet. Fuel
  injection is much better than carbys every time, as for the spark, I
  cannot see why one could not use a electronic ignition as a previous
  writer described (B&S), one for each cylinder with wasted spark, ie
 two plug wires on each coil, then if one coil failed you would be
 only drop out one plug on opposing cylinders, plus you would have a
 very hot spark with about .040" gap not the pillidy .015" to .020"
 with a magneto, just the correct size gap to catch a bit of carbon,
  I am surprised that the FAA still allow magneto's to be used, I
 have had more failures with magnetos in engines than any other
 single thing. I know all the reasons they are used (no external
 power) ect., ect.. John Burey

  Be careful with wasted spark. Only the bottom plugs will tolerate that.

  Paul Lamar

    Hi   Paul, what is the reason for not tolerating wasted spark on the
 top plugs? as you know I nothing, nothing, (in a high pitched
 voice),about Rotarys.
   John Burey

 Waste spark fires two plugs at the same time.

 The problem is rotor 2 is always 180 degrees out of phase with rotor
 1 so when rotor 1 is on the firing stroke rotor 2 is on the
 compressing stroke with a combustible fuel air mixture that might
 pre ignite causing a negative torque on the e-shaft. You can see
 that with this picture of a transparent model engine.

 In a 2 cylinder or more piston engine, the firing stroke is 180 out
 of phase with an exhaust stroke so the waste spark has no effect on
 the spent exhaust mixture.

 Paul Lamar back from China.

Hi Paul,

He's baaack. Good to see you are back. I hope you had a good trip. Anything
interesting?

Dale Davies


Yes I will upload some stuff shortly.

Paul Lamar


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