Subject: intake runner length
From: rotaryeng
Date: 5/2/2012, 1:33 PM
To: AAAA Put this in the To box

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 I have decided to use a turbo p-port 13b on my Wheeler. I have the
    core  engine completed and sitting on the engine mount at the
    moment. Before I  make the engine mounts, etc. and start laying
 out   the rest of the engine  compartment I need to confirm a couple
 of   things-

      My plan is to have around 250HP or so (maybe a little more) and
    end up with  a modest boost at take-off power. The boost will be
    controlled to maintain  this power level if desired up at altitude.

      1. The first question is about the intake runners. Is it necessary
    to  maintain the 18 inch length of the runners even if I run a
    turbo? Or, can I  run the turbo discharge into a plenum with just
    enough tubing to make it in  to the plenum after the throttle plates?

      2. Is sufficient heat available from the cooling water (read
    heater core)  to provide cabin heat at high altitudes in cold
    weather. Here in FL heat  wasn't much of an issue other than
 having   too much of it, but in the  Carolinas in the winter I have
 seen OAT   below 0 at 12,500'. That's cold.  I  remember that the
 rotary uses   the oil as a means to remove waste heat, so  would it
 be a better   idea to use oil as a means to heat the heater core for
  cabin heat?

      3. There has been a lot of discussion about turbos and getting
    them to live  longer than an hour or 2 with the rotary. I have found
    2 types of turbos  that are described as "continuous running"- one
    has ceramic bearings and  the other has a "floating journal".
    Advice here would be helpful- the  turbo I select will determine the
    exhaust header selection.  A model number  or something would be a
    great start.

      Kevin Alderman

      On the intake length the 18 inches are still an advantage with a
    turbo as  during  the low boost phase there is still a breathing
    advantage. That translates  to slightly  lower fuel burn per HP generated.

      If you send me a sketch of the fire wall I'll do a 3D layout of
    the motor  mount  and turbo installation.

      The KIS  shown has a higher thrust line than most aircraft so
 the position     of     the thrust line relative to the top of the
 firewall is important   for 18  inch runner  clearance.

      Paul Lamar

     I am using the Viking mount that I have- the Viking is 4 inches narrower
     than the Wheeler but that was a minor modification.  The problem
 at   the moment is the thrust line and the cowl that came with the plane.
    When the engine is centered up I only have 1 inch or so between it
    and the cowl on top. I measured my Connie and the only way it
 would   have worked is because the high point is at the extreme rear
 at the   mags. The mags would have been about 1/2 inch from the
 cowl. I can   get more clearance by lowering the thrust line, not my
 first choice.

     The later Wheelers have a conventional tail not the cruciform
 tail   that I have- and the thrust line is about 2 inches lower. I assume
    that the tail had something to do with placement of the thrust line.
    The only recurring complaint about the CT Wheeler is that it has low
    tail authority on landing. Moving the propwash and thrust line
 down   might make this worse.

     The good news is that my cowling is 46 inches long- which gives
 me   about a half acre under the cowl for the engine. The 13B looks quite
    small naked under there at the moment. I have the plane blocked up
    at the spar, and with the engine sitting in place I still need 100
    lbs just to get a neutral CG. With that info, I need to get as
 much   of the engine done as possible
     (hanging parts on it) so that I can get my WB right. Which means
   turbo, etc. is up on the list.

     I have reservations about using the cooling air ducted into the cockpit.
     The cowl flaps that you showed are under the plane at the
 exhaust-    and any exhaust leakage particularly under the cowl
 would be   directed into the cockpit. My ventilation is through NACA
 vents on   either side of the plane well away from any exhaust. The
 air from   these vents will be ducted through air vents to the
 passengers, or   can be diverted through an RX8 heater core mounted
 behind the panel.

     Kevin Alderman

     Yes I can see that you have less clearance under the the cowl
 than   a KIS cruiser. That rules out the 18 inch up and over intake
  runners. I assume you are using the Viking nose gear as well.
 Moving   the thrust line down without moving the entire motor down would
    affect the prop clearance as well of course.

     Your scheme of using a beam to pick up the front connie mounts will
    work well with a custom oil pan. That will put the engine/GB/prop
 CG   right over the front connie mounts. The rear connie mounts can
 be ignored.

     We used to use that and called it a Schertz beam. It was
 patterned after    the QuestAir    Venture mount. Here is some shots
 of the QA set up.

     I assumed you were going to use a simple 180 degree side exhaust
    out of the turbo but a RX8 heater core will also work well.

     I can still do a 3D of your set up if you give me a few dims such
    as the distance of the thrust line down from the top of the firewall
    and the dims between motor mount points.

     Paul Lamar

    I will be out of town (read away from the airplane project) for a
    week, I can document the dims  on the mount when I get back. I
 have   decided not to use the Viking nose gear- after a LOT of work
 I just   cant get the retractable gear to work in the wings, the
 Wheeler wing   is too thin. So, I will use the Wheeler factory fixed
 gear setup   with the castering nose gear. The Wheeler has no
 provisions for   steerable nose gear, as it was designed to be
 steered with   differential braking. So, to avoid lots of extra work
 I went back to   the original. I was willing to adapt the plane for
 retractable gear,   but not just for the nose.

    Do you have a  known thickness for a header for the turbo that
 will work   for this application? I have found several made from SS,
 but I want   to make sure that they will not burn through in the air.

    Back to the intake runners, I do have plenty of room to route the
 intake   runners up and rearward (toward the firewall) and keep them
 in the   range of 18".

    Kevin Alderman

    The stock 2nd gen will work but most used ones are already
 cracked.   The sharp machined edges need to be radius-ed with a die grander.

    V out the cracks and weld them up. It will last 5 years.

    Paul Lamar

    What is the welding procedure you recommend? There is high Nickel
 arc rod or preheat and Oxy Acetylene weld with cast rod that I know
 of. I know some cylinder blocks welded in non structural areas with
 the nickel rod. In the exhaust, I would expect cracking beside the weld.

  Dale Davies

  I am no expert on the subject. Larry Childs welded a front end
 housing for me and he says the secret is... heat it in an oven
 before welding and make sure it cools very slowly.

  Paul Lamar

 Every time I've tried to weld on cast Fe all I got was a maze of cracks
 no matter what combination of weld wire/preheat I used.  YMMV

   Mark LaPierre

 Maybe Larry will reveal his secrets.

 Paul Lamar



 I know oxyacetylene welding with pre heat and cast iron rod works. I have had
manifolds done this way for old cars.

Dale Davies


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