OK we've had a few discussions on alternative fuels now, so its
time for a round-up. LPG with diesel 33/66% gives more power and
less particulate emissions and is rebatable at tax time(in Aus). Weight
restrictive on A/C. A good power increase for lower powered
diesels without up sizing cubes and I'm looking at it for my
purposes. But what Hasn't been clarified is the effect of H2O on
the combustion reaction, we've had to and fro's blah blah but if
it will allow increases in range by allowing LOP due to better
combustion in rotaries why should we not investigate it as another
advantage of the no valve arrangement. Paul has been obvious in
his opposition to H2Oas a pure fuel supply, but what as a
supplement. Weight and range benefit balanced. If I was to Fly
from here to Perth, 2500+ Kms could I do it with 1 or 2 stops. BTW
at our local fuel station we can now buy 100 octane unleaded 10%
ethanol, it is supplied for the speedway nearby.
I was watching some nascar and at the bottom of the screen they
were proclaiming ethanol as the first anti-nock/detonation,
NOW IT'S BACK. could those more enlightened "please explain". Oh could
you also elaborate on the weight/volume/calorific/octane theory
for complete clarity please. a/f is measured weight for weight not
volume of fuel/weight (of air). I'm sure someone Knows the answer,
if not we can work it out by debate. I do have Chemistry knowledge
and need the scientific figures. yours hopefully Graeme Riley
In addition to half the range and all the other H2O drawbacks it
is half the power. That is a direct result of it gaseous form. It
is hard the get enough H2O gas in the combustion chamber to
generate the power the rotary is capable of on ordinary gasoline.
It is a fundamentally impossible.
Now if you wish to use liquid hydrogen don't expect me to be
within half a mile :)
To even discuss alternatives to gasoline is to distract attention
from the real issue. There is plenty of gasoline in the world and
there is no real problem burning it. It is only necessary to drill
for it. The gasoline and CO2 controversy was manufactured by
Democrat liars seeking absolute political power.
Paul Lamar
I'm right there with you Paul. The question I'm really trying to
ask is will small amounts of Hydrogen ( as would be supplied by an
onboard generator) added to the combustion mixture Produce any
significant economy returns. I'm not suggesting replacing gasoline,
we have been down that road.What I am wondering is if combustion
supplementation with H2 and O wil 1/ improve combustion and 2/
increase range by virtue of milage increase minus extra weight
penalty. Will enrichment have any known benefit to the combustion
efficiency. H2 fuel alone is definately a catalyst for disaster ,Oh
the Humanity,what I want to know is wether low level continuous
production for combustion completeness will enhance the range of a
gasoline powered engine. That is can I produce more efficient power
using the combination than by using gasoline alone, a range
extender if you will. I have no intention of storing H2 in an
aircraft, that lesson has been learnt, and I have no desire to
replicate the Hindenberg on any scale.
Graeme Riley
I don't know but I doubt it. I have no desire to build one and
test it.
Paul Lamar
A small amount of propane or CNG added to the intake of a diesel engine
produces a large reduction in emissions and a power increase. A noticable
reduction of exhaust smoke readily visible. It seems to act like a
catalyst in the combustion. The H2+O generator "may" work in a
similar manner on gasoline engines. I am scepticle, but technology
is bringing some neat stuff out. Time will tell.
Dale Davies
Wow those figures are amazing Jean, thanks for supplying them,
shame the vid didn't work, It would be interesting to see. How much
gas does it supply litres/minute. what is the weight of your
system? was the computer interfacing a big issue? any more details
would be most welcome
Thank you also Dale, I am thinking that ethanol is less dense than
gasoline hence the higher fuel burn, to improve endurance extra
fuel could be carried due to its light weight, but tank size will
be limiting. Do you think raising compression will allow gasoline burn
rates?. Maybe Dave could have used ethanol at Reno, yeeeer haah,
special racin' juice!!! High power with charge cooling.
-- Graeme Riley
Hi Graeme,
I think you would loose out on the weight to volume deal
especially with regard to power. That said, I worked with a fellow
that built a Dodge 318 with
13:1 CR to run exclusively propane; LPG. He got the same fuel
economy with this set up as he did stock on gasoline. UPS bought
some delivery vans a few years ago with 4.3L Chev V6 engines with
turbo charging to run on CNG. I do not know how that worked out.
The turbo charge would add to the effective compression of the
engine which would help the economy with minimal modifications to
the engine assembly. I think a rotary with 10:1 CR and turbo charge
running LPG could work. One advantage to LPG is that the fuel is
under lower pressure (200-250) than CNG. Thus the tanks are
considerably lighter. A few/bunch of 20# tanks connected could be
fit into an airframe. Gasoline does give the best bang for the
buck. We are in a world now though that is requiring better
economy and emissions. Jean MAY have something with the H2
generator as a supplement which MAY act as a catalyst for the
gasoline combustion process similar to how LPG or CNG does for
diesel combustion. The people selling mileage enhancers give the
hype and the people that are refuting the process usually give
example of ALL the previous scams. There MAY be some things coming
on the market now that do work. NOTE: I am not endorsing any
product here, only making observations. That stated, it can not hurt
if some individuals felt like testing something, go for it. Try it
on a dyno or run stand with a propeller and document without said
device and with, so there is some semblance of scientific evidence
to make a valid comparison. I am wondering how a rotary would work
with a higher CR and running on JET
A. Make diesel combustion chambers similar to CAT pre-cups or the
old Case cups that the injection sprayed across the cylinder into
the pre-cup. In both of these the initial burn started/happened in
the pre-cup and than a blast of flame came roaring out into the
main cylinder. The cat system sprayed directly into the pre-cup.
After they went to electric starters, they put glow plugs into the
pre-cup. A ceramic glow plug in the combustion chamber the screws
into the leading spark plug hole might work. You could use a modern common
rail diesel injaction from a 4 cylinder with 2 injectors in each
combustion
chamber. 11:1 or 12:1 CR with grooves in the face of an otherwise flat
rotor
face and turbocharged for economy and power. One LPG tank for a catalyst
would
then suffice. Add in a power recovery turbine and the efficiency
could be really good.
Dale Davies
Hang the 20# tanks on external bomb racks, easy to service. Crazy Milo
--That would be perfect for a T-51. Good one Milo.
Gee Dale, what don't you know mate? Thanks again for sharing your
knowledge. Paul, I'm going to have to get some greenbacks to buy
that book, hope it will be safe in the mail ! How much for shipping
? Graeme Riley
$15 for shipping over seas. $30 for the book. US greenbacks
only. No CC no checks. Perhaps international money order. Letter
post only. No Fed X or UPS to this address.
830 East Santa Maria Street
Suite 303 very important
Santa Paula CA
93060 USA
Paul Lamar
Now that might be a better use for H2 + O gas, be fun anyway! A
clean Hydrogen bomb. LOL. Hope homeland security don't decide to
pay me a visit!!!! This thread is getting a bit jumbled up, the
order in the emails gets switched or is disappearing when I go to
reply, so I'll clarify and put my name to the above comment refering
to the H2+O T-51 drop tanks, wouldn't want someone to get blamed for
my comments. Graeme Riley
Dale Davies
Dale,
It's amazing how people confuse a good memory with
intelligence and similarly knowledge with understanding. A good
memory just means you have the tools at hand, tools can be puchased
or borrowed. Intelligence is ones ability to use those tools to best
effect. Knowledge without understanding will only help you pass
exams. People with an understanding know stuff they didn't even know
they knew, they can work backwards to obtain knowledge. Lots of
people knew "what goes up, must come down" they just didn't
understand what that meant. That was until Newton used a bit of
intelligence to understand it. Just because something can work
doesn't mean it will, e.g.DaVinci's helicopter. People with
knowledge, understanding and intelligence are truly valuable and
powerful but sometimes lack direction. With wisdom
(another often misunderstood term) comes direction. If you posses
all these qualities you become a natural leader simply due the willingness
of lesser mortals to follow, not by persuasion. And true leaders know
when lead, when to follow and when to stand beside. At least that's
my take on things. How's that for babbling?. Here's some more. A
babbling brook can be a soothing thing. So keep babbling, it's
soothing to know I'm not alone. Oh by the way manure makes the best
fertiliser and produces the sweetest fruit. That is a natural
process. If I manage to make it over your way I'd really like to
catch-up with you and maybe we could babble-on (not Babylon)
together a bit, typing is so slow. Graeme
Sure enough mate. Any time. Here is a giggle for you. A friend (before he
got
caught with his dip stick in the wrong oil can) is the kind of person that
talks a good story. Talked his way into assembling a 428 Ford for a guy
for a
'68 Mustang. First thing that came up was I asked what the heads were.
Mustang
and Cobra Jet heads had 3 exhaust manifold bolt holes at each port. He had
the
2 bolt heads. One at the top and one at the bottom of the port. In a
Mustang
you can not get to the bottom bolts due to the spring towers. The car came
with a 390 from a full size car (Galaxie).
Next problem came when buddy was installing the crank. I got a phone call
to
ask if I knew why the crank would not fit. I responded with where had he
put
the thrust bearing. Reply was "why in the back of course. Why?" I told him
to
put it in the center and hung up. Twenty minutes later the phone rang and
when
I answered was asked "how did you know?" 500Km away and I knew. Still
laugh my
buns off about that.
I subscribe to the theory; go for the giggle and deal with the
consequences
later. Anybody don't like that has no life.
Dale Davies
Dear Paul,
If you are still interested in purchasing the ceramic bearings from china
just let me know. I can ask someone from my purchasing team to source it. I
would need the full specs of the bearings. If you have any brands and part
numbers in mind let me know
Roderick ... from the far away Shanghai
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