Subject: NG engine
From: rotaryeng
Date: 6/1/2012, 6:54 PM
To: AAAA Put this in the To box


    Paul,

       I have quite a bit of experience running the 13b on natural gas.
    In  fact   Mazda   built 13b natural gas engine blocks back in the '90's.
       There are still some here in my state still brand new in boxes.
    I  just   bought two.   During testing when I worked at RPI the 13b
    would  run 8k -10k on the   stock seals.   With ceramic seals the
    time doubled.    The natural gas engines come with ceramic seals and
    9.7 compression.    Another interesting thing about the natural gas
    engines is they run  so   clean that   they have omitted the
    trailing ignition. The rotor  housings only have one   spark plug
    hole. And the oil metering is half  of a gasoline 13b. So the
    engine is   equipt with   two spark plug  distributor and only two
    line oil metering.

       Back in the day we did a test in the field with the Idaho fish
    and    wildlife for an   indian tribe raising salmon. They needed an
    engine  to pump water from the   river into   tanks where they would
    raise the  fish and then put them into the river.   The engine   had
    to run for six  week straight. The requirements where no engine
    pollution, no   noise,  and no evidence left behind when job was
    finished. The team parked    the 13b   on a trailer near the stream
    with a belt drive running a  pump. A propane   take was   delivered
    to the area and feed the engine.    The engine had an audible horn
    and light to tell when it was time to  add   the oil. A   local
    indian tribe member parked a small trailer next  to the engine
    trailer and kept   the engine topped off. Worked great.    Maybe you
    could pass this along to Danny Perterson.

       Thanks,Skip Gorman

       Who do you get ahold of to buy an engine and how much?

      Dale Davies

      Thanks for the info Skip,
      I was out of pocket for a few days.  Like Dale I am curious how I
    can get   ahold of   one or more of these boxed engines.  Next
    question, what   type of reduction unit should be used?   Danny Petersen

    I remember someone selling the ceramic apex seals for these on ebay
    last year.

    Ed Carver

    I was watching Hot Rod TV on Speed Channel this evening.  They were
    talking about a liquid propane injection system that Mother's developed.
    Looks interesting.  They were building a dragster with it.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/31/sema-2007-1-000-hp-propane-
    chevelle-by-mothers/

    You'll have to glue the URL back together.  Check it out.

    They said it was way better than the gaseous propane version.

    Mark LaPierre


    Not that big a deal to do. Size injectors for the new fuel volume. Works
   better that methanol in a diesel as it wants to vapourize. Methanol wants to
   cool the air before it vapourizes and ends up washing the cylinder walls. The
   LPG or LNG is a gas at ambient air temps. LPG stays a liquid when colder than
   -40, does not matter C or F because they are the same at that temp. LNG still
   will turn to gas as it boils and condenses at -162C. One advantage of NG is
   that its combustible limits in air are 5% to 15% which is a fairly narrow
   range, very different than H2. The expansion during vapourization is a problem
   should a tank be ruptured. LPG is similar in this respect. Calgary Alberta had
   a school bus with kids running LPG rear ended a number of years ago. Many were
   burned and killed due to the rapidly expanding gas cloud. Very tragic.

   Dale Davies

     Dale, my Dad has a fuel injected V6 Mitsubishi duel fuel. The LPG
 system runs through the original injectors, has a modified chip and is
 "claimed" to produce the same power and that "seems" to be correct but
 we haven't dyno tested it. What do you reckon ? carb systems are down
 on power a bit and consume fuel 1:1.1 LPG the price still makes it
 cheaper. Always warey of claims made by people trying to sell you
 their product. There is also a lot of different names for the same
 product which helps to confuse the issue.
     My sister-inlaw has a dedicated LPG V8 ute, the petrol (gasoline,
 more confusion) system has been removed altogether, a real bitch if
 you run out of fuel, I'll check exactly how that is set up, me brother
 is a mechanic so should just take a quick call. Seems that what is new
 to you guys, could be old tech here. We have always been paying more
 for petroleum (gasoline) and have copius quantities of LPG. Petrol is
 $1.50/ltr, LPG is anywhere from 60cents/ltr city to 90cents/ltr
 country and not available at all in the bush, go figure. ALL taxi's
 (cabs) use LPG  Graeme Riley

 That one was OK.

 Paul Lamar


LNG requires much more pressure to contain it in liquid form at anything
greater than cryogenic temperatures resulting in a very heavy tank.  LPG
uses much less pressure to remain liquid at much higher temperatures
relative to LNG and a much lighter tank.

LPG can be kept in liquid form at pressures that normal injectors and
fuel rails can handle where LNG must be vaporized and fed through a
carburetor.

LPG vaporizing in the intake manifold after being injected absorbs a
great deal of heat which causes the fuel air charge to be chilled to a
much lower temperature/much higher density than you get with gasoline.
You get more fuel/air into the combustion chamber with the denser
charge.  The benefit is similar to several pounds of boost.  There is
additional benefit in the greater temperature delta between the charge
temperature and the combustion temperature.  Boyle's law works for you
in the intake side as well as the compression and expansion phase of the
combustion cycle resulting in greater efficiency.

LNG must be vaporized before being fed into the carburetor.  Very little
of the chilling effect of vaporization takes place in the intake manifold.

  Mark LaPierre

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