Subject: P port considered
From: rotaryeng
Date: 7/1/2012, 11:41 PM
To: AAAA Put this in the To box


     I went out on a cross country from Everett, Washington to Walla Walla and back the
     last few days. Cruising at WOT at 11, 500 feet I had a MAP of 19-20 and was making
     about 140 mph true rpm was around 6200 with a catto 3 blade 74 x 88 pitch. I need
     some aerodynamic cleanup on my cooling scoop, something I intend to work on this
     winter. But I think that I'm probably only making about 150 hp or so- not bad, but
     not what I could make. I think that the NA 13BREW with four ports and 9.1/1
     compression would not be a match for a 13 b with p ports and 9.7/1 compression. I'm
     thinking that I might be building such and engine for an engine swap in the future.

     Oh, and by the way, it was a great day for flying.

     Brian Trubee

     Build another engine with a p-port Brian. It will really help up high.
     A 4 port will never match a p-port. A good 4 port manifold is hard to make as well.
     I assume you have a 2.17:1 gear box.

     Paul Lamar

     I don't know if I would get an appreciable increase in power if I were to use
     premium, I am using regular mogas at the moment.

     Brian Trubee

     BTW power in a rotary is directly related to RPM in that range.

     The best pay off is work on the cooling drag first.

     Pressure on any surface facing forward is drag. Use a water manometer.
     Get a Gopro camera to record the results.

     Paul Lamar

     Right now I'm happy to just be flying, I'll wait until the weather turns crappy out
     here before I start doing aerodynamic cleanups and other refinements. Oh, and my
     temps were pretty good- highest was 201 one the coolant, 208 on the oil, that was at
     10500 feet at 21 inches MAP and 39 OAT and 6000 rpm. . A little less throttle
and the
     temps dropped down to the 180s-190s.  Exhaust is running high- about 1950 -2000- but
     my EGT probes are 1 1/2 " from the exhaust flange. The lowest that the EGTs run
     regularly are around 1800. I think that these alarmingly high egts are a function of
     the close proximity of the probes to the exhaust ports. Must keep an eye on the
     headers when doing maintainance/checks.
     Brian Trubee

   Hey Brian,

   A good part of the temperature that you are reading is due to the
   stagnation pressure of the high velocity exhaust gasses impinging on
   your temperature sensor elements.  The exhaust gases are compressed
   against the leading edge of the sensor element.  The effect can be quite
   impressive at the supersonic velocities found in the exhaust flow of
   rotary engines.  The same effect causes triple digit temperatures on the
   leading edges of high velocity aircraft, like the SR-71, when the actual
   OAT is in the double digit negative degree range.

   Boyle's Law explains the relationship of temperature with compression.
   This effect is also explained by the the law of conservation of energy.
     The kinetic energy contained in the supersonic velocity gas is
   converted to thermal energy when the gas slams into the stationary
   temperature probe and comes to a full stop.

   This is the same energy that is recovered by the turbine blades in a
   turbocharger.  It also contributes significantly to the heating of the
   turbocharger blades.  It also makes a significant contribution to the
   heating of the exhaust valves in boing boing engines.

   If you want a more accurate reading of the temperature of the gas stream
   the reading must be taken behind some obstruction that will slow the gas
   stream, absorbing the heat resulting from flow compression, similar to
   the way combustors are designed in jet engines, to slow the gas flow so
   the flame will not be blown out by the air stream.

     Mark LaPierre

   Very interesting Mark. Thanks. You obviously have some experience with
   this. What is your occupation?

   Paul Lamar

 Hey Paul,

 I have engineering degrees in HVAC and Structure.  I've spent most of my
 professional time building ships and hacking computers.  At the moment
 I'm working as a database developer.  I've been a Linux user since
 before optical drives were invented. Remember those stacks of floppy
 disks ;-)  I've designed and built several K-8 size computer networks.

 At the moment I'm fascinated by the mathematics of geodesic structures
 and their relationship to the value Phi = (1+sqrt(5))/2.  My plan is to
 build a geodesic greenhouse roof.  Probably a 3rd frequency Type 1
 structure.

 You may recall my previous post on counter flow cooling systems.  Both
 that post and this post draw heavily on my experience in HVAC design and
 engineering.  Engineers have the best fun!

 One of the issues with measuring the flow velocity in ducts is dealing
 with stagnation pressure at the sensing site.  Careful consideration has
 to be used to be sure that your pitot tube is measuring the velocity of
 the flow, not the static pressure.

 Flow velocities in ducts are used to calculate air balance across HVAC
 systems where measurements at the diffuser are impractical.  The flow
 velocity in an A/C duct is so low that there in no need to consider the
 compressive heating effects of the sensor in the gas stream.

 Mark LaPierre

 For measuring static pressure I use porous kitchen foam. Put a static tap as well as
 a pito tube in the duct. I hot glue it to the end of drip irrigation tubing :)
 We started with Magnehelic in the old days 1960's :)

 Paul Lamar


That's a great solution for measuring the pressure in an open area such
as you have in the pictures.  You would have to hole saw a good size
hole in a duct to be able to slip a gadget like that into it.

I figured out the math for the geodesic dome I was talking about.  Now I
can calculate the coordinates of all the vertices and the strut lengths
of all three of the different strut lengths required to construct it.
It pretty cool.

 Mark LaPierre


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