Subject: Using 2 Megasquirts. One per rotor
From: rotaryeng
Date: 7/10/2012, 12:24 AM
To: AAAA Put this in the To box


      This looks like a real simple way of using megasquirts on rotaries and you
      have
      redundancy. The engine will run on one rotor. It solves a lot of problems
      using just
      one Megasquirt on a rotary.

      I has the advantage of using a notebook computer with a USB connector to
      tune and
      save injector tables to share with other people merely by emailing them.
      Megatune is very sophisticated and easy to use tuning software that runs
      on a notebook.

      IMHO this is a great idea.

      Paul Lamar

      -----------------------------------------------------------
      Using MegaSquirt ‘out of the .box’

      www.not2fast.com/megasquirt/doc/rotary_injection.doc

      MegaSquirt introduction.
      The MegaSquirt was design by Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo to be a simple
      and cheap
      batch fire fuel injection system. Been around for years.

      There are 2 injector driver outputs on the MegaSquirt, running off the PWM
      channels
      of the MCU. This allows both saturated and peak and hold injectors to be
      used on the
      same hardware: very clever. This allows 2 different injection events to
      occur in
      parallel, which suits our purposes very nicely.


      Specific needs of Rotary engines.

      The rotary engine, due to the rotor layout has a few key differences with
      a
      reciprocating engine. Many of these work in our favor. And remember, the
      otto cycle
      is the otto cycle:

      There are 2 rotors, spaced 180° apart. EFI.

      Build 2 MegaSquirts.

      Fit a pair of hall effect sensors one at 22 degrees BTDC and  one 180°
      later (top and
      bottom) Hook one MegaSquirt to the top sensor and one to the bottom.
      Burn in injector staging code if required.

      Ignition.
      The ignition pulse on 1 rotor corresponds to 22° BTDC on the inlet cycle
      of the other
      rotor, give or take the amount of advance being used. Very handy.

      Use 2 MSD capacitor discharge units per rotor. One per plug. This is what
      the racers
      do and is it very simple and straight forward. Each Hall Effect sensor
      fires two MSD
      units 22 degree BTDC.

      Injection.
      Around 220-280° is available for injection. In a reciprocating engine, you
      can ‘puddle’ fuel on the inlet port to increase the injection time. In a
      rotary there
      is little time for this before the next inlet cycle starts. This forces
      relatively
      large injectors to be used, with staged injection being a
      useful method of getting high max flow rates and a good dynamic range. For
      example,
      at 8000 RPM 1 revolution is 7.5ms, giving around 6ms for injection.

      In terms of injector strategies there are a couple in general use
      The best for our use here is 2 injectors in each runner.

      The code mods are very simple, if needed at all
      You get the full 6 ms for injection at high RPM
      2 MegaSquirts are needed so adding a full $100 to the costs
      Tuning will be a little more tricky as you have to set each parameter
      twice

      ----------------------------------------------------------------


      I had an idea of using 3 megasquirts that fed a logic box that compares
      the outputs
      and forwards the one that at least 2 ms boxes agree on. Not sure if it's
      really
      feasible since that would induce some lag in the outputs.
      Joshua

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------


      SymTech Labs' coolant temperature sensor is a standard GM CLT sensor
      capable of
      interfacing with all MegaSquirt ECU's. It features 3/8" NPT threads and
      can also be
      used as an intake air temperature sensor (IAT/MAT). Each unit is shipped
      with a 6"
      pigtail for easy installation.

      Intake Air Temp/Manifold Air Temp

      The big question that I have is there seems to be conflicting info. Often
      they talk
      about a MAP sensor but this block diagram does not show it. A Manifold Air
      Pressure
      sensor (MAP) can be used to control the amount of fuel injected just like
      an O2
      sensor. That is what Tracy does.

      Any type of feed back from an O2 sensor will not work as 100LL is death to
      O2 sensors.

      The MS flow chart shows a read of the MAP but the schematic shows no
      connection to a
      MAP sensor.

      Can anybody help me out on this? Is the sensor on the mother board? Where
      is it
      connected?

      BTW The megasquirt has the built in capability to send engine parameters
      back to the
      notebook in real time for use as an EFIS. The notebook software is already
      available
      to display these engine parms in real time. This is a real cheap EFIS.

      Paul Lamar

      Separate Megasquirts for each rotor is a great idea as long as there is no
      danger of fire or explosion if the ignition for one rotor fails but the
      fuel in-
      jector continues, and unburned fuel air mixture continues out into the hot
      rotary exhaust environment.  Perhaps an electronic switch can be in-
      corporated into the Megasquirt circuitry that allows the fuel injector to
      fire
      only after a recent ignition signal--"recent" as established from voltage
      remaining in a capacitor which is otherwise charged from ignition
      activity.

      I am very interested in this one-megasq-per-rotor approach and would
      appreciate if anyone has any ideas.  Thanks.

      Gene Kahn

     Gene,
     Had a computer re-installed in my 86 RX7 and an injector pin got crossed
     over into a ground. The injector went to a steady on state. Was totally
     undriveable, smoked like all get out but didn't seem to pose any fire risk.

     John

     Finally found the MAP sensor. It is mounted on the back side of the board.
     Tracy uses the same sensor.

     There are dozens of files in MS on the internet. I don't know how anybody is
     expected
     to sort all this stuff out. If I did not have extensive experience in this biz I
     would be lost.

     http://www.rotaryeng.net/IEEE-road-test-sys.pdf


     Paul Lamar


   Paul,
   I am currently building up the fuel system for the P Port.  Oil and cooling come
   next.  Iwas planning on using Megasquirt and am interested in how 2 units will work
   together.  Could you post how the ignition will work?  Hoe do the other aftermarket
   CD systems get wired into the system?Also one of the vendors is offering plug and
   play as well as kits for all of the MS family of boards. It would be interesting to
   see what version you pick for aircraft use as some of the latest versions have many
   options that we do not need.
   Joe Berki
   Limo EZ

   I am going to order one next week and test it. I'll let you know what I find out.
   I'll test it on the bench with a pulse generator to simulate the CAS or Hall Effect
   sensor, an O-scope to check the injector pulse width and hand vac pump to simulate
   the MAP. I will buy the early/cheap version with asm language as they are easier for
   me to modify the code to suit the rotary. I have a set of boards that I will sell
   cheap if any one wants to build a kit. Cash only.

   The CD ignition is real easy as you have no dwell to worry about. A CD system fires
   the plug the instant the pules comes in from a CAS or Hall Effect sensor.
   Just use 2 sensor 180 degrees apart on the flywheel. One for the front rotor and one
   for the rear rotor. That eliminates all the kludges trying to get the Megasqurt
   ignition to work with a rotary. Use the Megasquirt for fuel injection only.

   However using one MS per rotor may simplify the ignition situation and I might be
   able to get it to fire an RX8 or LS1 coil. I don't know yet.


   Paul Lamar

 Look at the jimstim and if you have a ms3x the jimstimx. See
 DIYAUTOTUNE.COM for a source.

 chris smale

 I don't think I need it Chris. I have and complete selection of pules gens and
 O-scopes. I do have the stim PC board unpopulated so far.

 BTW do you still have your airplane? I could drive up in the RX8 and take a look.

 Paul Lamar


You are welcome to come up.  I will need a
several day notice and can only show the plane on weekends since I am in
the office during the week. Unfortunately I can not run the engines at
present time since the airplane is buried in the back of my hanger and I
have my current project blocking the movement of the airplane out of the
hanger to run the engines. However it is easily accessible for
inspection. I do have a video of the engines being run. If I can get my
wife to find it, it will demonstrate that the engines really do run.
Like all airports BFL is locked up and I will need to let you in. This
will take a little coordination if you are driving. If you are flying
in, it is no sweat. The hanger is on the south east side of the field
(BFL). I just need to know when you are coming and approximate arrival
time in case I am not out working in the hanger.

chris smale

OK Chris I will warn you with email well before I leave and call when I get close.

Paul Lamar

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