Subject: Traditional Megasquirt aircraft problems better
From: rotaryeng
Date: 7/11/2012, 12:10 PM
To: AAAA Put this in the To box


   The Megasquirt was initially rejected for aircraft use as there
 was no
   method of
   manually leaning it. The other problem was the Megasquirt relies
 on the O2
   sensor to
   set the mixture. O2 sensors are damaged by 100LL. A third problem
 was the
   throttle
   position sensor TPS was required.

   As I recall Tracy used these problems years ago as the rational
 for doing
   his super
   simple system that uses only manifold air temperature MAT/IAT and
 manifold
   air
   pressure MAP to set the mixture at any RPM. Therein lies part of the
   problem tuning
   Tracy's system.  Some people have taken a year of flying to get it
 right.

   The last thing was the Megasquirt rotary engine ignition problem.
 The
   rotary engine
   ignition problem could be solved using extra hard ware and was
 solved but
   it was a
   messy kludge.

   I agreed with him at the time. That was years (10) before I had
 the idea
   of using one
   cheap Megasquirt per rotor. One per rotor is likely to eventually
 simply
   solve the
   ignition problem using off the shelf computer trigger inductive
 coils like
   the LS1
   and the RX8 coils with out using one CD system per plug. One CD
 system per
   plug is
   more expensive than a computer triggered inductive coil like the
 LS1 or
   RX8.

   I know Motorola/FreeScale  68K asm code so in theory I can fix these
   problems by
   recoding the chip.

   Another way of leaning the Megasquirt is trick the MS computer by
 manually
   adjusting
   the O2 sensor input voltages and simulating the TPS as wide open
 with
   voltage
   dividing potentiometers.

   Perry Mick does something like that using a stock RX7 computer and
   probably has over
   1000 hours on it.

   The siren song of the Megasquirt was and still is the built in
 simple
   EFIS, easy
   tuning using a note book computer and data logging.

   Time and new technology and new ideas tend to change old rational.

   Paul Lamar


       I've thought about the leaning problem with MS for the past
 couple years
       since the issue has come up. Seems you could leave out the O2
 sensor and
       replace it with a pot after the running parameters have been
 programmed.
       Then read your egt for best mix.

       Seems we could also modify the injector dwell time similarly.
 I have a
       couple MS2 boxes and will loan you one if you like. I'm all
 for using two
       crank triggers, optical, hall, or whatever for a CD setup.

       Ed Carver

       Yes! I would like to test them Ed. I can come over and pick
 them up.

       Paul Lamar


     Any time I guess, give me a heads up the night before.

     Ed Carver

     OK Ed.

     Paul Lamar



   Hi   Paul,
     I have been using two MS systems on a 4 cyl
   opposed engine for some time, am about to test on a dyno. I run
 the two
   MS with two complete system sensors,ie., TPS, IAT,CYL temp, MAP,
   seperate fuel pumps ect.,with RPM triggered from two separate
 sensors. I
   was running using the original ignition system, but one failed so I
   upgraded the MS board with a daughter board which enabled me to
 control
   ignition timing, which for me involved relearning how to control the
   ignition advance.

   The two systems run on the same injectors, two leds on
   the dash tell me if both are triggering the injectors,(you can
 switch
   either system off using either the ignition trigger or the power
 to the
   MS system without affecting the running of the engine), BUT, I
 have not
   figured out why when you switch either MS system back on with what
 you
   had switched off the motor runns like SH--t, until you turn off the
   system again that you had originally switched off!!


   I think it is
   something to do with MS on switch on looking at the MAP sensor and
 maybe
   not being able to get a steady voltage from the ignition sensor?? I
   reasoned that as the systems were switching the earth on the
 injectors
   that the left hand would not know what the right hand was doing,
 and it
   seems to be the case, except when one switches off one system!!! I
 have
   used the O2 sensor to program the fuel mixture, the thinking was
 that
   I would remove the O2 sensor after programming. I must be missing
   something with what people are saying about leaning in flight,
 surely
   that if you have a system that adjusts mixture for altitude, and
 load why
   would you want to fiddle in flight, after programming the mixture
 to be
   progressively richer at higher and higher manifold pressures, and/
 or RPM??


   If starting again I would buy the later system with the ignition
   controller built in, even if I was not using the ignition part of
 the
   system, the systems are so well assembled (when bought fully
 assembled)
   I do not think it is worth the bother to assemble oneself.  MS
 does not
   rely on the O2 sensor to set the mixture, that is set with the VE
   tables, you can of course use the Megatune to autotune using the O2
   sensor, but i do not know that I would trust it to tune the range of
   power/manifold pressures in aircraft in flight.
      John Burey

   It is one thing to maintain stoichiometric mixture with changes in
 altitude and quite
   another to lean. Leaning an engine will improve the BSFC at any
 altitude and also
 at the
   expense of power. Most car engines will maintain stoichiometric at
 all times.
   This is a fundamental difference with aircraft engines. Every
 licensed pilot is
   taught this.

   My implementation of two MS systems on a rotary are entirely
 independent.
   The rotor one system never tries to control rotor two and vice
 versa.

   Paul Lamar
   -

   John,
   Thanks for relating that experience!  But even if your injector
 was steady on
   as long as the plug was still firing, there was still combustion
 taking place in
   the combustion chamber instead of the exhaust system unless the
 resultant
   mixture was just too rich to combust properly...dont know...
   Gene Kahn



     Hi  Gene,
                     I guess I forgot to say I have 2 spark plugs per
 cylinder, so the seperate systems are completly seperate (except for
 the
 injectors), I, when changing the mixture tables, and ignition
 tables, do
 it on one MS system, save then download to the other system keeping
 them
 both the same, (timing and mixture). Then restart the engine on both
 systems. There should be a difference when running one spark plug and
 one system but there seems not to be a difference, I guess I will
 notice
 it when running on the dyno.
                John Burey

 Since both MS systems are in parallel on the injector lines, you
 should
 have an isolation diode in each injector wire from the MS to the
 injector. Without it, voltage may be backfed into the MS system thru
 the
 injector output circuitry, possibly causing the processor to arrive at
 an undetermined state.  This could account for the improper operation
 when power to the MS is restored, as it may bypass the power-on reset.

 Victor Roberts


John, Victor, Paul and all...thanks for your help!  I would be
interested
in adding a second independent leading plug to each rotary
combustion chamber since we dare not depend on just a trailing plug
[see prior thread on red hot exhaust systems!], and I appreciate
Victor's
circuitry planning for failure mode for 2 plugs.  Mazda's LeMans engine
had 2 lead plugs per rotor [plus the trailing plug for 3 total per
rotor]...
but I am guessing they used a different rotor housing casting.  The
second leading plug might be positioned close enough to the first one
[perhaps near the leading plug, and between the leading and trailing
plug, giving three plugs total per chamber], that the flame front still
works with the existing rotor face design.  I will investigate this
with an
old rotor housing.  If I am barking up the wrong tree someone can feel
free to set me straight.  Meanwhile, I will take a close look at my
housing to inspect the coolant passages, and then make a slice or
two through the housing to get a better look at what metal might be
available for another plug etc.

I am also planning on being at Mazdatrix on Monday morning August
20th and will ask them about this and other things.  If anyone has
anything else specific they would like me to ask, please let me know.

Gene Kahn


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