Hi All, It?s been a while since I?ve been on the newsletter between work and trying
to make progress on the Long EZ.
Anyway, it?stimefor the Fuel system and I wanted to get feedback from thegroup onmy
design. I attached a PDF of my concept whichutilizes 2different sumps, 1 rear cockpit
thigh support/fuelsump and a 2ndsump in the hell Hole. The reason for the addedsumps
is to try torecover some of the fuel I will be losingdue to installing
Infinityretractable gear.Anyway, myassumption was a P-Ported 13B with aTO4 turbo so
the linesneed to be able to keep that thirsty puppy humming at WOT. Iguess it would
make about 350hp at WOT. Anyway, can you guystake a look and shoot holes and make
recommendations. I lookat the fuel system and Engine installation design as
themostcritical systems we develop so I want it to be right.

Thanks

Mike C.

I'd put a fuel drain in the lowest part of each sump where lowest iswhen the ship is
parked.

I'd put the pumps in the last sump.

I don't see provision for fuel return.

tc

--
Thanks TC, cant believe I forgot the return line. I decided to do away with the Hell
hole sump, seems like I would be creating a lot of work for little gain. I did add a
fitting to the thigh sump so Icould add an Aux Tank if it was ever needed. Could just
strap itinto the GIB seat. Anyway, I have a couple of questions about thefuel return.
Will it have enough pressure to overcome the headpressure in the sumps from the
Strake tanks? And the thigh sump isprobably only 2-3 Gallons so should I be worried
about hot fuel inthe sump? Or should I just return the fuel to the strakes? If
Ireturn it to the strakes is there a chance I could empty the sumpfaster than the
gravity fill line can return it to the sump? Thanksagain for all the help guys. I
attached an updated diagram, throw arrows!

Mike C.

Paul
I'm resending this because I never saw it posted, Might have gotten lost in the ether.

Thanks

Mike C.

Now you are talking my language as an instrument tech (industrial) . Why use cad
plated carbon steel fittings. This is designated by the single S prefix. I would use
either SS (stainless) there is a a couple of different stainless types available or
alloy. Also a couple of options. Use the SS ferrule sets. With time the cadmium
plating seems to let the nut stick to the fitting and it takes some effort to break
it loose. SS does not have the same problem. Its problem lies with a lack of
tolerance to cross threading. Proper tightening of the fittings is important. Start
with the nut just finger tight on the fitting and then tighten 1 1/4 turns. Use a
felt pen to mark it to get it right.Also, I would use 1/2" return line to make sure
there is no restriction there.What is the method of connecting to the sumps. You show
tube unions
(600-6) with the tube coming out of the sump. Another fitting available is
SS-6-TA-1-? i Left a question mark for the pipe thread size; 1/4,3/8, or 1/2"NPT.
These would be 4, 6, or 8 like AN designations. This would then allow the use of the
tube unions directly. A better option is SS-600-1-? tube adapter. If you need a
90* then SS-600-2-?. There is also 45* available. This would eliminate a possible
leak source or two. You know every joint will leak eventually.Swagelok has available
a small catalogue that is about 6" x 3" and about 3/8" thick that lists a lot of this
and explains the codes for it's fittings. Also pressure ratings for tubing sizes and
materials.

Dale

Hi Dale
Thanks for the info, I only chose the Steel because they were a lot cheaper, I'll
change to SS. I will also increase the size of the return line to 1/2". My plan is to
use Al tubing which will be floxed into the sumps and Swagelok fittings to connect
the lines toe the stub tubes in the sump. It seemed like a simple solution. I did
look at the Swagelok fittings with NTP -600-2 on one end but thought if I used Al
tubing I could bend the tubes in the sump to the location (lowest point for the fuel
feed and highest point for the fuel supply and vent) that they needed to be at. Then
flox them in place through the sump walls with a stub tub protruding which will allow
me to use a union to attach to the rest of the supply lines and vents. Now that I
think about it I could use a ss-600-2-8 for the return lines and a SS-600-2-12 for
the Sump feed and increase the feed line size to 3/4". Then use the original plan for
the fuel pick up lines to the Andair valve.Keep shooting arrows, I really want a
bullet proof Fuel System. No fuel = no thrust = BAD DAY!

Thanks

Mike C.

Hi Mike,

Another option for the lines instead of floxing them is to put a pipe fitting into
the tank as required. You can get bore through fittings from Swagelok.
These do not have the smaller bore down from the nut and ferrule area that stops the
tube from going farther through. If you put a 3/4" NPT fitting in the tank, you can
put a suction screen on a tube and have the tube bent to where you need the end at.
Then you slip the fitting over the tube and tighten the fitting in. Once the
fitting(tube adapter in Swagelok speak) is tight, you tighten the tube nut to lock
the tube in place. Then you can cut the tube off an inch from the nut and can then
use a tube union to connect to it.
There is
also available reducing unions. An example of the part number for these is;
SS-810-6-6. This would connect a 3/8" tube to a 1/2" tube.

Also there is Alloy fittings for different applications to deal with some chemicals.
Some of these may be lighter, but also more costly. Once you finalize the fittings
required you can contact the local Swagelok people and compare the costs. I do not
think the weight savings would be a lot, but a kitchen scale would answer that quickly.

The fitting to put in the tanks are readily available for welding into pipe or thin
wall tanks made of sheet metal. Known as weld-o-let. To flox, protect the threads and
use a course sand blast to rough up the surface. Fiberglass tanks use this method and
have 2" to 4" fittings with no problem. Grounding cables are commonly attached here
also as a stud can be welded to the fitting before glassing that the ground can be
attached on to. Very common in the oil patch for produced tanks to catch water. Of
course there is always some hydrocarbons with the water that could ignite with a
static build up.

Dale Davies

Hi Dale
Attached is the diagram for an Aluminum Sump, Can you check out the fittings I
identified to make sure they make sense? I thought a lot about it and I think Al is
the right way to go for the Sump. I can just cut out the parts and have them all
welded together and have the fittings welded on which will eliminate a possible leak
source. It also solves any grounding issues.

Thanks

Mike C.

Mike,

Here is a link to a Marine (Boat) fuel valve that may be appropriate for your use and
a lot cheaper than the "Andair" valve.....FWIW


http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/Groco_FV65038_6_Port_Fuel_Valve.html

Kelly Troyer

I have one of those things. It is solid brass and it weighs a lot. However it is
cannon proof.

There is another way of doing the EFI fuel system that does not use the double layer
valve. Mike Wills used one pump per tank and a solenoid valve to switch the return lines.
Two switches on the panel selected the pumps/tanks  and the solenoid valve then
operated automatically. Both tanks could be selected. The one way valves in the pumps
prevent cross flow.

Paul Lamar

I like the Andair because it is lite and it has an optional remote extension for the
valve.  I'm thinking that might allow me to actually locate the valve in the back and
have the control in the Left Consol.  My plan is to have the Sump below the strake
level as a thigh support the fuel pumps located in the hell hole which will be about
level with the sump or slightly below.  I was planning on using Tracy's Fuel pumps
but if there is a better option, what would you recommend?

Thanks

Mike C.

The Tracy/Walbro peripheral pumps are OK if the pump is mounted low
adjacent to the fuel sump. They have troble drawing fuel from a "head".

The AirTex/MSD  roller vane pumps can suck fuel but they have nylon fittings
so mount  them so they are unlikely to break in a crash. The nylon fittings have been
known to fail in a crash.

Carter roller vane pumps and gerotor pumps are all metal I think.

http://www.carterfueldelivery.com/fuelpumps/universal_fp.php

http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS-Performance-Products/JEGS-HP-Electric-Fuel-Pump/1713915/10002/-1

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/159010/10002/-1?parentProductId=1713915#moreDetails

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carter-P5000-Universal-EFI-Inline-Fuel-Pump-/250948434496

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-p4070/media/images


Paul Lamar



-- 
The Rotary Engine News Letter. Powered by Linux.
ACRE NL web site. http://www.rotaryeng.net
You Tube key word PaulLamar2
Copyright 1998-2012 All world wide rights reserved.