Hello Im brad Banks , and Im in South Africa
Im looking for an alternative for myIA14R Ivchenko engine, we have 2
PZL101 Gawron (GAVRON)aircraft,they are notoriously heavy on fuel and
expensive to overhaul.
The current engine is a 9L monster of soviet excess, it eats 1Lt per
min and
produces 230Hp at 2800 rpm, at cruise the engine ticks along at 70%
+- 1800
rpmand itweighs in at a whopping290 Kg's with out the prop.
Could I ask a few questions:
1)Would a crisp 13B turbo produce enough to spin the V530 prop
sufficiently
to lift off
2)The reduction in the IA14r is 60% this means to match the prop rpm
to the
engine will require some paradigm shifting in the design process.(any
ideas)
3)The last hurdle will be that the prop spins clockwisewhen looking
directly at the airplane from the front.
4) How would one adapt the 13b to enable hydraulic pitch adjustment?( the
soviets only used 2-5Kg/cm2 as the engine oil pressure.)
Sincerely brad
No need for a turbo. A port 13B would be 250 HP. The prop torque would
be 570 foot pounds
with a 2.85:1 gear box from Tracy Crook.
Clock wise is a problem. The Tracy Crook gear box that spins clockwise
looking at the
front is only a 2.17:1 ratio so that would limit prop torque to 434
foot pounds and HP to
about 200...220
Perhaps you do need a turbo after all.
Perhaps a 3 rotor would be a better choice.
Paul Lamar
Hello paul, our yak 12's are on the way and should land in the first
week of July. The
idea as explained before is to put in a rotary 13b as 20b's are just
not available. Will
it be possible to produce 300hp on the flywheel with around 0.4 boost?
Next the psru :
Is it possible to get a psru that will be reliable at 300hp ?
And still be able to keep the v530 paddle prop?
V1 the Al14R radial is at 2800 rpm
And the prop is at 1600rpm.
V cr is 2100rpm and the prop is at 1260 rpm.
Regards Bradly Banks.
South Africa.
There is no gear box for that prop that I know about.
What is the diameter?
Paul Lamar
Hello Paul in our project to convert our fleet of Russian crop
dusters. I have
disassembled a vedenyev M14p engine. It is very slow running but built
with classic
Russian overkill.
By reversing the planetary set I can get a 3:1 reduction whilst still
retaining the
hydraulic variable prop arrangement.
My concern is the sun gear. All the gears in the set are straight cut
and with an in put
of 6000-6800 rpm will the mesh cope?
The complete reduction unit is readily available from various sources .
Regards
Bradly Banks
WOW!!!!That gear box looks great for a rotary.
My guess is an 80 inch diameter prop with 7500 RPM
take off. I think the sun gear will be OK. Especially if you scale
up our new silicone rubber coupling design.
If you run a turbo and pump it up to 300 HPat 6000 RPM even a larger
prop can be used. Make sure you install a turbo tachometer
and keep the sustained turbine RPM under 80,000.
Especially at high altitude where the back pressure is lower
and the turbo speeds up. You can exceed that for a few minutes
on take off.
The combination of high EGT (1800 F) and high RPM will
destroy a turbo.
The engine itself will long out live the turbo
especially with ceramic apex seals. My conservative guess is 1000
hours TBO
in heavy duty duster use. You will be the leading heavy duty rotary TBO
tester in the world.
Change all the tension bolts to 1/2 inch from 10 MM.
Mazdatrix can do that or a rotary drag racer in South Africa.
Makes a cannon proof engine.
What does something like that gear boxcost.
BTW do you know Alex Molteno? He flies for the UN.
Get one of my cooling books. Send me $50 US.
To:Paul Lamar
830 East Santa Maria St.
Suite 303
Santa Paula Ca.
93060 USA
Mock up the cooling system with Styrofoam after you get
the book and send me pictures of that. Oil cooling is critical.
When you get one of these flying let me know and I will come
down and go for a ride.
Bradly Banks
Bradley,
I've been looking at purchasing an mp14 gearbox for a PSRU. I was
thinking of modifying
the gear set inside for a better ratio for the rotary. I never
realized you could use the
existing gear set for a 3 to 1 ratio
My trip to mistral was an utter failure as they will not sell just the
PSRU. I'm still
looking for a reduction box with hydraulic constant spend capability.
Because I want a
reversible prop for my seaplane project.
Can you explain how you get a 3 to 1 ratio by "reversing the planetary
gears"
Also it looks like there isroom for Paul's damper to address the
torsional vibration
problem when putting the two together.
It looks like mistrals PSRU (the outside anyways)
Will Failing
To get a 3.12 to one ratio hold the rear Ford C4 ring gear (or any
other ring gear) stationary and take the power out of the planet carrier.
Hard to beat the mass Produced Ford parts on cost.
I was thinking recently of copying the Ross design as there are now about
a 1000 out there in every day service if you include Tracy's version.
That is lots of hours and experience.
Not rocket science. The incentive is I recently found a low cost machine
shop in Ventura with big enough machines to make any of it.
Did you get any picturesof the Mistral office?
Paul Lamar
--No pictures Paul but I will be back in Geneva some time again in the
next few months.
I could go back. What do you want pictures of?
Also I agree with everything you said about the ford gears.
Problem with those PSRU's is no hydraulic prop.
That's why the reduction unit of the m14 is interesting.
Will
Hello Paul, will and group.
Thanks for the replies , and the feed back on this project, having the
web is invaluable when it come so sharing ideas. I have found this
forum, refreshingly free with information, and the genuine interest
shown by all contributors is encouraging.
I am a total newcomer to the rotary scene but being a Yak owner my self
I have marvelled at the Russians and their inspired take on engine design.
The M14p is a true stroke of genius and it has been manufactured in
countless numbers both for theKamov helicopters and the Yak series,
not to mention the thousands of water pumps and generators.
My attention is drawn to the lack of torsional dampening in this melee
of reciprocating parts.
I can only see a possible stress relief point in the annulus ring and
the sun gear drives respectively , Both are "trapped" by 2 circlips,
thus allowing for a measure of movement which increases when the engine
heats up. This engine is a violent beast , and it drags our 52 off the
ground with no sweat at all. Yet is as smooth as a kitten at 70% So then
,how have they solved the flex-plate issue?
Will, this issue of the prop pitch adjustment really worried me , as we
are planning on putting these aircraft into Congo with a large
agricultural venture to dust crops. And needed an alternative the
Ia14R's that were the OEM choice. I had a Time ex M14P in the hangar and
I pulled the gearbox off to investigate the possibilities.
This Mr Vedenyev couldnâÂÂt have made a better box for the13b/20b, a
truly brilliant piece of engineering.
It has 1 main bearing and the other side of Propellor shaft is supported
in the hollow of the crankshaft. Oil is provided for from the engine oil
system @5 Kg/cm2and split into 2 in the casting. 1 for the CSU and the
prop piston and the other for the lube, even this is a work of art ,
where each needle race, bearing and meshing gear has a unique gallery to
feed it oil.
The original ratio is a 60% reduction on the prop. This is where the
annulus ring is the primary driver and the sun gear is fixed (hence the
flex plate)
The planetary assembly is tasked with moving the propellor shaft.
I read on this forum that by switching the drive to any of the 3
components, allows for ratio and directional changes.
So I swopped the whole assembly around and secured the annulus ring to
the flex plate this allowed the sun gear to become the primary drive
input, and the ratio is as near to damn it as 3:1.
There are some height issues to deal with where the planetary assembly
needs to be spaced up by 3-5mm to accommodate the new annulus ringgear
holder ( secured again by circlips) ,but they are minor engineering
problems.
We are left with some 90mm from thesun gear to theface of the
casting that will attach to the 13b.ill have to see what im going to
do there to support the end of the prop shaft ( not sure of a bush or a
bearing)and add a dampener if needed.
The only major set back is the prop direction, where the Russians turned
clockwise and the American's anti Clock , we will just have to fit
American blades to the Russian hub.......
All in all, if this is successful , we will have arugged PSRU with the
ability to handle 400HP and have hydraulic pitch adjustment. On an
engine that is light on fuel and is 20% of the cost to overhaul. (Bargain)
Im sure you can pick up a time ex M14p for a few thousand , and the last
price I got from Romania for the components was not more than 3000 usd.
There is no love lost on Mistral, they play their cardsclose to their
chest, but the product is no rocket science, although their product is
very nice to look at, its nothing this forum cant replicate. I'll get
this PSRU and its drawings out to the group as soon as it is on the engine.
Paul, I will send a few pics of the assembly please can you add them to
this post.
Thanks again brad
Brad,
Great update. Also a possibility is the gear box from the AI-14r and the Chinese HS-6
(they made 10,000 or these engines) they are all very similar.
Brad how do you plan on connecting the sun gear to the shaft your attaching (the front of
the m14 crankshaft I assume) to the flywheel? Also are you using a standard bellhousing to
mount the PSRU or are you making you own adapter plate
Will