Subject: F104 NOT the last single engine ASAF Fighter
From: rotaryeng
Date: 3/25/2014, 2:08 PM
To: AAA-rotaryeng



Snips


"Maybe the German pilots were incompetent or poorly trained."

The predominant part of the German air force training takes place
together with the American pilot training in the USA, Sheppard AFB.
So if they were incompetent, maybe they learned a lot of it from
American pilots :)

There were 116 pilots killed by crashes of German air force F-104.
106 of them were German, 8 were Americans.
A Number of the deaths happened because of the insufficient
American catapult seat, which caused in low speed ejections to a fatal
pilot-seat-detachment, so the pilots were slain by the seats.
After switching to the British martin-baker seats, there were
significant less deadly crashes of the 104.

Not sure why there were so many crashes at all. There are some
opinions, the reason why were the modification done to make the German
F-104 version a all-weather fighter bomber. A job the F 104 was not
designed for. The F 104 was primary designed as a interceptor.

For sure a weak point was the single engine system of the 104,
which leads in case of an engine failure to a total loss of the jet. As
far as i can remember, since the F-104 there are no more single engine
jets in the air force.

Don't know nothing about the difference between Airbus and Boeing.
But according to your economic understanding the airbus can't be
soooooooooooooooooo bad, otherwise it wouldn't be successful.


Best regards
Thomas Rebhan


With all due respect Thomas, have you heard of the F16? Here is
another one: http://f135engine.com/.

The F35 is still so new that is isn't officially in service yet.
The age of single engine fighters is long from over.

Norm


Single engine US attack/ fighters..examples.......
A-4 Skyhawk, A-7 Corsair, F-8 Crusader, Century series , F-16
Falcon, coming F-35
It is difficult to listen/read....to such derisive comments... as
there are so many factors to consider when discussing accident rates.....

ATP Bill


As far as I know, the problem of the German Starfighters was that the original desing by "kelly" Johnson was so good that it was possible to make a bomber from that fantastic interceptor.

The very small wing of the F104 overloaded of extra bombs was working at the limits of its aérodynamic capability, forgieving very little when taking off and even less when approaching and landing.

The Luftwaffe had to wait more than 10 years the twin-engined multi-mission "Tornado" that was delayed several times for different reasons.

In the very crowded airspace of (west-)Germany the low speed characteristic of the overloaded F104, and the ejection seat designed for the interceptor version, has been fatal to a lot of pilots (who were neither particularly incompetent nor poorly trained).

The "Tornado" is now been replaced by the "Eurofighter"... Also twin-engined.


Here, in France, the single engined Mirage 3, Mirage F1 (interceptor) and Mirage 2000 (multi-mission that can be compared with the F16) are been replaced by the twin-engined "Rafale"... but budget cuts will probably force the french air force to buy a single engine fighter next time.



IMHO, both Boeing and Airbus have the knowledge and the capacity to make good, efficient, up-to-date airplanes. However, it seems that there is a difference of understanding of the role the pilots in a jet liner. (I may emphasise to be clearer.)

For Boeing, even if a lot of automation is there to improve flight efficiency, comfort and reduce the pilot work load, the human pilots remain at the top of the decisions concerning the flight management and control.

For Airbus, the human pilots are better than the machine on very complex situation, and for a short time only. So the aircraft should be able to fly automatically on all normal conditions, and on most incidental ones as well. The pilot's role is then to optimize fuel management and flight route according to control (and even this latter point is to be automated in a short future !); and of course in case of very rare but so bad condition that the machine cannot handle, to fly the aircraft...

As a glider and light aircraft pilot, I am glad not to have become an Airbus pilot : I wouldn't like it.
On the other hand, I like to be a passenger either on Boeing and Airbus liners, that are both very reliable and comfortable.

If, in the future, liners are to become unmanned flown, the gap will be shorter for Airbus.


   Philippe DEJEAN
   Ingénieur Sénior transformateur

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