Subject: Gear Box info - Questions-new machinist?
From: rotaryeng
Date: 8/21/2014, 8:03 AM
To: AA-1-Me




   Paul,

   Thanks for the gear box/speed reducer pics - Interesting - A few questions -

   1 - Good lifetime on the needle bearings ??

   2 - Looked like uncaged bearings ??

   3 - Presume the 10 lb heavier unit used some other type of bearings ??

   4 - What provisions for lubrication ??

   5 - The drawings have all the appearance of a multi-thousand dollar product - Price range ??

   6 - Cooling problems - I would think that there might be some with uncaged needles ??

   7 - Doesn't look like a particularly difficult project from a machining perspective -

   8 - Presuming outer housings are aluminum castings - Patterns exist ??

   Roland Friestad



   You must keep the RPM on the  needle bearings down. Particularly on the thrust needle bearings. Those tiny needles are really zinging around in there. We have a lot of experience on this. Some people have worn them out. That is the reason for three back to back. The RPM on any one is one third of the total.

   The shaft, surprisingly, does not get any load on the bearings until the aircraft stalls or spins. Characteristic of planetary gear sets as all side load is canceled out. Hard to imagine but true. Those give no problem and they are much lighter, as is the housing, if they were ball or tapered rollers. Win win situation not to mention much lower cost all around.

   Note the extended point set screws are better and easier to machine than splines. All back lash is eliminated.

   I have an account set up with a local wholesaler of tranny parts. I make no money on them I just charge cost plus shipping. The 3.17 gear set is just under $200.

   The box can be built for under 5 or 6 hundred in parts. It all depends on what the NC shop charges.

   Shares synthetic oil with the engine. BTW the oil stays clean in a rotary. Uses the engine oil cooler.

   Here is some more stuff on the subject from 16 years exp. :)

   There will be more on the rubber coupling with the engine.

   Paul Lamar



   Paul and Roland,

   Glad to see motion on this project. Plenty of people would be happy to pay $2-4K for a competently done redrive in the 100-200 hp range. The extra cost is for support -- good engineering and documentation so that people can figure out where their problems are and how to fix them. The only thing worse than being on a schedule to deliver things is being on the hook for phone support when stuff breaks. The planetary system and bearings are entirely known technology; where there isn't a proven system, and a lot of trouble remains, is in handling of torsional vibration.

   Rotary engine power pulses will be at a higher frequency, which makes some problems easier and takes some solutions off the table. It would be worthwhile to make aany new design applicable to a range of powerplants, not just rotary.

   At some engine speed, the frequency of its power pulses will resonate with the spring constant of its drive shaft, gearbox, propeller shaft and the inertia of the rotating prop. At this frequency, each engine pulse meets the reflection of the previous pulse delayed through the compliance of the system, and causes a huge increase in torsion throughout (at other frequencies the reflected pulse doesn't exactly meet the outgoing pulse and therefore doesn't reinforce.) The engine is pushing one way while the inertia is pushing back the other way, doubling the torque in the shaft at the first pulse. The peak torsion can exceed 20 times each individual torque peak because each successive pulse adds more energy to the spring formed by the shaft. The key to a successful redrive design will be to know exactly what's going on and build something that will never get to a destructively resonant condition. There are many methods of achieving that, but you won't know you're there until you have modeled the system mathematically and proved that your model is accurate by testing.

   We need to: (1) design the compliance of the system so that the resonance, with all values of propeller inertia, lies outside the ground and flight operating range of the engine and (2) if the resonant point is reachable in normal operations, include something to break the resonance (lower the Q of the system) when excursions exceed a safe value. In normal flight operation the resonance breaker should not deflect at all. Ross used the springs of a clutch plate with limited success. Paul has suggested a coupling built with pieces of silicone rubber, it looks good but as far as I know has not been tested. Tracy had his own design and wrote clearly about the design process but without sharing any of the math. There are commercially available rubber giubo disks used in many European cars. Tracy called this the "BMW seduction" but it's also available from Centaflex and commonly used to solve the same problem in industrial and marine drives. Vassily at Airtrikes successfully uses Mercedes giubos with his spur gear redrives.
   Rotax and Geared Drives (Bud Warren design) use clutches -- Rotax to decouple when torque gets too high, Geared to not engage until engine speed exceeds the resonant point. In every case you need to establish how long something will last in worst case conditions (operating at the critical resonance point) before something breaks.

   I don't use the terms "damper" or "harmonic" because there is no damping going on, and this is mostly at the fundamental frequency, not a harmonic. Damping of a resonance requires resistance, in which the excess energy is dissipated as heat, and that's not happening here. Any of these devices would burn up in an instant if they were actually absorbing any significant part of the engine's power. And "dampen" means to make wet, not attenuate, so it's not a "dampener." An elastomeric member or spring breaks a resonance by compressing, shifting the resonant frequency momentarily so the resonant point is no longer where it was.

   My background is in EE and acoustics. I design and make acoustic transducers for a living, so resonance, damping and compliance are a little bit familiar. I have studied redrive design for some time (I am still looking for an engine/redrive that will work for a low speed propeller design project) and have met a few of the problems, but know only that I am certainly not an expert in any of this -- but I can now tell when "expert" opinions aren't supported by physics.

   David Josephson


   Let me know what you come up with. A lot of people have been fooling with this for a long time. Gear and spline back lash probably enters in to it and that changes over time. So too rotor bearing clearance. Two nine pound rotors have a significant effect on the polar moment of inertia. Prop weight also varies. Beware of the rotary's high RPM when looking at open rubber couplings. I think that had something to do with the RotoMax crash.

   Then there is the question of shock load on the gears. Seems like a bit of rubber is called for there. Some Brit engineer said "An ounce of rubber is worth a pounds worth of engineering :) Silicone rubber is tough and high temperature. Ideal for this use.

   It seems no matter what we do the resonance happens at 1800 engine RPM.

   No problem idling the rotary engine above 1800 RPM as the prop is only going 600 RPM roughly. I was rather surprised to find the same resonance RPM on the RotoMax engine with an entirely different gear box, engine design and coupling.

   When I shut off the O-470 in my Cessna 182 the whole airplane shutters as it passes through resonance RPM.

   Paul Lamar

   I'd make provisions for a hydraulically operated prop and governor pad if I was to do a new PSRU product.....make it an option-----even Geared Drives is going to make a 0 offset geared unit now, with their clutch and their hydraulic prop and gov...........
   Marc W.

   I knew you were going to say that Marc :)

   In order to use a hyd prop the whole design must be changed to pressure
   fed plain bearings. The vast majority don't need a 50 pound hyd
   prop. The power to weight of the rotary airplane is so good they
   leap off short runways :) Cost is also one of the  negative issues.

   Paul Lamar

There are also a few electrically actuated CS props available. MT makes certified versions with composite blades.
http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/pro_elec.htm

There is no need to re-invent the wheel to add a hyd gov unit. The MT composite props are so light that the biggest complaint is the aft moving CG. I fly a Decathlon with an MT composite prop, and the biggest downside I can see is the aft CG, and the low inertia. Removing the 60+ lb Hartzell and replacing it with the 40 lb MT made a noticeable difference especially when flying solo from the front seat. A friend with an RV4 with an IO 360 recently replaced his aluminum prop with a fixed MT. Overall he is happy, but his CG moved aft enough that a 200 lb passenger  makes his plane out of CG. Also, when you pull the prop back it stops almost instantly and will even stop windmilling at best glide speed, requiring a dive to get it spinning again. The plus side is instant acceleration. The low inertia allows the engine to go from idle to WOT almost as fast as you can push in the throttle.

Another plus is that if you damage a blade, they will send you a single blade so you dont have to replace the whole prop. In the event of a prop strike, the blade pretty much shear off. You still have to tear down the engine, but most times engine damage is minimal.

Overall, I like these props.


Kevin Alderman


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