Subject: Pre-chamber initiated jet ignition
From: paul lamar
Date: 8/30/2016, 2:57 PM
To: A10-Me-Earthlink



   Paul,

   During my combustion testing on rotary engines I kept finding an anomaly
   of autoignition.  Usually about 6 to 8 cycles on a normal 8000 RPM
   sweep. It seemed to be caused by exhaust reversion continuing to the
   next intake cycle and causing the auto ignition. Very scary to have an
   uncontrolled ignition source.... but the good news was that the burn
   rate on those cycles improved!

   After a little study I discovered a Honda experiment that concluded with
   a race bike for the Dakar rally that had a two-stroke engine running
   without ignition and getting 20% better fuel economy. But the details
   were very sketchy.

   Fast forward to Formula 1 today. They are using what is known as
   Turbulent Jet Ignition. This process is not new, it was discovered by
   Ricardo and published in his papers from 1911. The latest version of
   this process by Mahle uses a direct injector and spark plug in a very
   small pocket that injects active radicals into the main combustion
   chamber. The engine can then be operated almost like a diesel and the
   burning process is spread throughout the combustion chamber by quenched
   active radicals causing a very fast burn rate. Lean burns have been
   demonstrated to lambda 2 or 30:1 AFR gasoline and throttling losses
   greatly reduced.

   This is why Formula One is now  producing the same horsepower but is
   using 40% less fuel.
   Mahle  is reportedly working with Ferrari but Mercedes seems to be way
   ahead of them.

   This ignition process seems to be a perfect fit for the rotary engine...
   especially on aircraft where BSFC is so important.

   Barry Bordes



   How are you doing the combustion testing on rotary engines?
   References for the Honda experiment?

   http://papers.sae.org/2010-01-1457/ <http://papers.sae.org/2010-01-1457/>

   The reason Formula One engines are burning less fuel is because they are
   turbo compound
   hybrids. A formula 1 engine is either on full throttle or on the brakes.
   The power recovery
   from braking is  a large part of that.

   http://www.rotaryeng.net/Oxford-TC-talk.mp4 <http://www.rotaryeng.net/Oxford-TC-talk.mp4>

   We have known for years that leaning the rotary up to 18:1 improves the
   BSFC at the expense
   of power.

   If you have a leaking apex seal hot exhaust gases from the leading
   chamber can
   pre ignite the following chamber.

   Paul Lamar


   I am using an Optrand sensor in the leading spark plug.  In conjunction
   with a TFX logger.

   See attachments for the type data it provides.
   The first is a peak pressure single cycle with exhaust opening pressure
   and temp.
   The second shows burn rate
   The third shows a complete 7000 rpm run.... tuning a new EFR turbo...
   the lower cells around 4000 rpm are retarded.

   I don't have the Honda paper number but check SAE 2010-01-2263 for past
   and  present research.
      Barry Bordes

   Looks like it is sparking  After Top Dead Center.

   We use 22 degrees BTC


   Paul Lamar

   That timing was initiated at approximately 22 deg BTDC.  It takes the
   kernel that long to grow into a readable pressure at 9 deg ATDC. The
   rate then snowballs from the heat and pressure.

   I adjust the timing to place the peak pressure at about 45 deg ATDC.
   (less at lower RPM)
   What we are seeing is how slow the burn is with standard ignition practices.

   Barry Bordes

   That is amazing. What does that device cost?


   Paul Lamar


   They have many systems from one to 28 high speed loggers. Sensors are extra.
   Here is a link with lots of info.
   Great knowledgeable support.
   My contact is Clint Grey.

   TFX Engine Technology - Engine Pressure Analyzers
   <http://www.tfxengine.com/hardware3.html <http://www.tfxengine.com/hardware3.html>>



   image <http://www.tfxengine.com/hardware3.html <http://www.tfxengine.com/hardware3.html>>


   Thanks.

   I don't need a logger. A Maximite is a great logger. Super low cost.

   This is some interesting research by Honda. Maybe they can use this to help
   their lagging F1 turbo compound hybrid engine development.

   "When the fuel is brought to the right pressure and temperature, the
   molecules break down into what are known as active radical molecules.
   These are highly unstable chemical compounds which are an intermediate
   step in the actual combustion reaction. When hot exhaust gas remains in
   the [chamber], it contains a small percentage of active radical
   molecules; when these are combined with the incoming fuel charge, the
   resulting mixture begins to auto-ignite at lower temperature that a pure
   gasoline/air mixture. What we currently associate with auto-ignition is
   engine knock, a phenomenon that occurs when the fuel ignites before the
   spark plug fires."

   Dan Gorsline  clued me in on this.


   Paul Lamar

   Hi!: the concept in the Honda paper in the link you provided, of Turbulent Jet Ignition Pre-Chamber Combustion System, is very interesting, and the improvements in fuel economy, of top quality.

   Regarding the fears expressed by Paul, of a leaking apex seal allowing flame passing to the preceding chamber, this may have happened under special circumstances, perhaps an engine raced under no load, but usually, the mix in the trail part of combustion chamber in a Wankel RCE may even not ignite.

   An engineer from Chile, Marcos Langeani, published a SAE paper, 921444:


   *On the Wankel Engine with High Pressure Recirculation of Unburned Gases

   * <http://papers.sae.org/921444/>
   1992-11-01
   Technical Paper
   921444
   Marcos Langeani
   "Despite a real progress since their introduction in early sixties by NSU, Wankel engines are still lagging behind their equivalent reciprocating counterparts as far as fuel economy and emissions are concerned. Fuel stratification during combustion promises further progresses, but a similar move is expected for reciprocating units. A type of stratified combustion system, which was called hybrid fuel energy conversion system, is outlined in the text. One special characteristic of such a system is the dilution of the already burned gases by the air which does not participate in combustion, when engine is operating at partial loads. The hybrid system features a deep recess in the rotor housing which has the function of a prechamber. The resultant geometry produces a significant recirculation of unburned gases, late in the expansion process of the leading chamber to the trailing chamber performing compression, with a major impact on engine thermodynamic cycle."

   Thus, the phenomenon of gas passing to the preceding chamber may not necessarily be bad. Of course, a leaking apex seal would add to lower bmep, but the subject may deserve discussion and study.
   Comments?
   Thanks, have a good season, best regards, + Salud
     Jose Gros-Aymerich
   Madrid, Spain

   I disagree on the emissions! My RX8 pases the draconian emissions laws
   in California with flying colors despite being over ten years old. In aircraft
   use it is only 5% behind a typical aircraft engine as far as fuel burn is
   concerned. In turbo compound form it would be better than any piston
   engine with a poppet exhaust valve.

   Paul Lamar

Smoky Yunick's adabaitic engine may have used a bit of the idea of the active radicals. With heating the intake air/fuel mixture to the point all the fuel components vaporized may be similar. Using the turbocharger to keep the intake charge from expanding back out the intake to keep the cylinder density the same while also mixing the air/fuel into a homogenous charge. It was not accepted by the big three possibly due to the complexity of incorporation and safety with the heat of the intake charge. I wonder how that would work on a rotor motor with having a homogenous mix coming into the engine? Part of the problem is cooling as soon as it comes in contact with the chamber walls.

Dale Davies

Instead of wasting all the time and money one this one may get a .01% improvement
in the BSFC at best.

Turbo compound gives a 20 to 30 % improvement.

Paul Lamar

The Rotary Engine free News Letter. Powered by Linux. If you want off
the list PLEASE let me know and I will remove  you.  ACRE NL web
site. http://www.rotaryeng.net You Tube http://tinyurl.com/beqqxas
Copyright 1998-2016 All world wide rights reserved.