Paul,
What fires the ignition? I looked at the M&W site and there are T1,
t2, l1,and L2. Joe Berki
Those are the Leading and Trailing coils. Four total. One for each
plug. Simple.
Joe,
This is the conversation I had with M&W sales. I was unable to find
out how to trigger the system with or with out a computer. Apparently
I was talking to a non engineer.
I think it will work but you will have to buy one and experiment with
it to find out. A pulse is a pulse whether it comes from a computer
or a conditioned CAS.
They make some good stuff in Oz but the documentation sucks.
Maybe somebody else on here that speaks Oz can try :-)
I give up.
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M&W Ignitions <
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mailto:sales@mwignitions.com
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mailto:sales@mwignitions.com
Wayne, are you an engineer or electronic technician or are you just
sales? Do you know what a CAS is? If not show this message to the
engineer.
Suppose I fired L1 and T1 with the same leading edge pulse from the
stock CAS (crank angel sensor) at 22 degrees BTDC and used another
CAS 180 degrees out to fire L2 and T2 would that work with the
rotary ignition _Pro-14R
What would I have to connect pin 5 to.
Paul
Please explain exactly what you need.
Wayne
so we would need 4 for a rotary. One for each coil. That does not
sound like the lowest cost solution.
Suppose I fired L1 and T1 with the same leading edge pulse from the
stock CAS (crank angel sensor) at 22 degrees BTDC and used another
CAS 180 degrees out to fire L2 and T2 would that work with the
rotary ignition _Pro-14R
What would I have to connect pin 5 to.
Paul Lamar
On 08/17/2017 01:01 PM, M&W Ignitions wrote:
Paul
Our single channel Pro-10R already has a reluctor interface built in
and we will be releasing an adjustable rev-limiter version of it
shortly.
Regards
Wayne
do you have a single channel system? we find that a fixed 22 degrees
BTDC works fine for us. No variable advance. We use a LM1815
conditioning IC The pdf is attached. It works with a CAS set to 22
degrees BTDC
Paul Lamar
On 08/16/2017 08:55 PM, M&W Ignitions wrote:
Paul
The multi channel systems are designed fro triggering from an ECU not
crank trigger.
Wayne
how do you get your ignition to work with a carburetor? Is is
sufficient to trigger pin 5 with a crank angles sensor?
If so what do I do with pins 25, 27, 28 and 29?
Paul
On 08/16/2017 07:43 PM, M&W Ignitions wrote:
Sorry, we do not understand your question.
Wayne
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Lamar
Paul,
I am using the single channel system, PRO-10R, with the reluctor
trigger input and a waste spark coil on the single rotor. Connected
an RX8 CAS and it worked just fine. Had it up to 7000 RPM yesterday.
I had to order it direct from M&W, because no US dealer does stock
it.
FWIW
Richard Sohn
Are you firing just one plug Richard or does that waste spark coil
fire 2 plugs? What did the single channel system cost?
Paul Lamar
Paul,
I am firing both plugs from the same coil. I paid about $500.
Richard Sohn
I assume that is a wasted spark type coil. Is that true. Do you have
a picture of it? That is a one rotor of course.
This picture shows two coils.
Paul Lamar
Paul,
in the picture is the initial system I used, until about two years
ago, when I got a Street Fire CDI and used the waste spark coil for
the first time. I could not use this CDI in the airplane because the
starter power would not turn the engine fast enough to overcome the
minimum trigger speed the Street Fire unit required. Than I talked to
M&W after you mentioned it a few weeks ago, and Wayne told me that
his system does not have that limitation. The M&W tech info states
that the unit is not sensitive to what kind of coil one wants to
use.
I believe the coil I am using now is coming from some Saturn car with
a 4Cyl engine. When I was looking for newer coils on the internet I
could not believe what is available. The coil I am using now I had
for about 15years. In the picture is a brand new replacement I
purchased recently.
I will have more pictures soon from the actual installation.
Richard Sohn
I think that is a wasted spark coil. Two sparks one activation
pulse. Normally with a conventional electric system it would have a
dwell time. When using it with a CD system there is no dwell time. It
fires when you tell it to fire.
Richard, do you have the M&W "installation guide" can you scan it
and send it to me?
Paul Lamar
Paul
You talk about a Pro-14R however you image you included is for a
Pro-Drag4R, similar function but completely different installation
instructions and power level. The unit was supplied with an
installation guide, if you have lost it a copy may be downloaded from
our website under the support -Technical Documentation tab. Check
the bottom sticker on the box before downloading as we have both
Series 3 and Series 4 versions.
Triggering is explained in the documentation along with trigger edge
and a great deal of important details for achieving a successful
installation. They also list operating voltage and warnings about the
use of 18v battery systems.
As these units are specifically designed for rotary engines L1 means
Leading 1 and T1 means Trailing1 etc.
Did the installation run ok initially with our system installed and
then start misfiring or did the problem start as soon as you
installed the new ignition?
Wayne M&W
I have both the drag and the regular version. The Pro14R and the
pro14R Drag docs.
What is the exact part number for the "installation guide"
I don't see anything named "installation guide" on your web site.
The M&W ignition worked OK at the lower RPM's. He probably ran the
battery down a bit and then he tried a full power run which means up
to 8000 RPM. It is connected to a Motec 800. It was installed by some
one else. He died and did not give us any documentation.
A lead acid battery will lower it's voltage when more current is
needed. As you go up in RPM with a CD system current requirements
increase.
We are now installing an 18 volt battery.
Since I am very familiar with CD ignitions having a patent pending on
one of my designs I know that the high voltage (300 volts) required
to charge the capacitor is very sensitive to primary battery voltage
at less than 12 volts.
Here is a video of my system at 8000 RPM. This is 4 sparks 5 degrees
apart. Patent pending. It will be a revolution in ignition systems
if I get the patent.
This is not to criticize, degrade or compete with your systems. Your
system works fine with the right battery supply voltage for one
spark. I like it as potentially it will work with out a ECU if I can
only figure how to wire it In other words a carburetor-ed engine.
My next door neighbor manufactures and sells CD systems that work
down to 5 volts but the design engineer set out to do that when he
designed the high voltage capacitor charging supply. His works with
carbs.
It is called Light Speed Engineering ignition. His only works to 2600
RPM for up to six cylinders.
Paul Lamar
Paul
The installation guides are found where i indicated previously, just
look down the page for a name that matches your units then click on
the link. As indicated in the instructions our street systems will
run down to 6v and the drag units 12.5v. Is this an old installation
that just started to play up or a new installation that does not work
at high rpm?
Wayne M&W
In other words the words "installation guide" does not appear on your
web site. Is that correct? Are you just fucking me over?
I already told you several times I had both pro14R and pro14R Drag
pdf's. The info I am looking for is not there.
IMHO your documentation is crap.
If we get the TTC record I will make sure the brand of ignition used
will not be displayed.
To: Joe Berki,
Forget M&W.
I now recommend two used MSD 6's from ebay and couple of wasted
spark coils. The coils Richard Sohn uses. You can get plenty of
understandable documentation from multiple sources on MSD 6's. Been
around for at least 20 years.
Summit has a low cost CD system as well. SUM-850610 Ignition Box
Silver Digital Capacitive Discharge Adjustable Rev Limiter Here is
the summit doc as well. 10 times better than M&W docs. With wiring
diagrams that leave no doubt about how it is connected.
Works down to 10 volts and puts 460 volts in the coil.
Paul Lamar
Okay, for the PRO-10R, Is see the technical documentation, which I
would call a "manual", with "installation notes" on page 3. That
seems to be what Wayne is talking about. I also now see from Richards
input about the "wasted spark" type coil. I have not seen these, have
to reasearch them more. Thanks for the info Richard.
Steve Carlisle
I think Wayne is lying. I don't think he designed it at all. He does
not know the answers to my questions. Any electronic tech would know
the answers.
Paul Lamar
Steve, In any circuit there is a requirement for a complete loop. In
a regular coil from the older distributor equipped engines the low
voltage was supplied through a ballast resistor at 8v to 9v. That
circuit grounded through the points. The high volt for ignition of
course came from the center of the coil to the distributor, rotor and
then to a spark plug.
After jumping the gap in the spark plug, how
did the circuit complete? The high tension winding is generally
joined with the low tension winding, if I remember correctly where
the 8v supply is starting to flow through the winding. The ground is
completed through the low tension coil. If you touch the points
terminal on the coil of a running engine you will receive a shock.
There is about 300v there. With an appropriate multi meter you can
see that.
Now a waste spark coil has the low tension winding supplied with
battery voltage on one end. The ignition control module of the ECM or
ECU grounds the other end for current to flow and charge the
winding. The the circuit is opened by a signal from the CAS. As the
field collapses the high tension winding is induced with a high
voltage current. This flows one direction out one post to the spark
plug and jumps the gap. At the same time another spark plug gap is
being jumped but the current flow is the opposite direction and back
to the other post of the coil.
On a regular points ignition, if you connect the coil low voltage
wires backwards the ignition does not work real well. The usual
thought is the spark jumps from the center of the insulator to the
ground post. Actually it flows from the ground post of the plug to
the electrode in the insulator. You get better initiation of flame
travel this way. With magneto equipped engines, every second cylinder
in the firing order fires backwards but due to the very high power
developed the burn is initiated well. Waste spark systems develope
very high voltage and current.
The GM Quad four engine had the
ignition under the valve cover so access was only after disconnecting
all wiring. That system developed enough power to kill you. I think
many of the coil on plug systems are close also.
I hope that explains waste spark ignition.
Dale Davies Paul ,
let me recall the problem with the MSD units. Their applications are
entirely distributor oriented. In their description it say's for 4 , 6 ,
and 8 cylinder engines. When your engine does crank somewhat slow and
the CDI does not fire it is not necessarily the voltage level, but more
likely theire BS minimum trigger rate built into the system. In a flying
airplane, where you do not have unlimited battery power, it can be a
real problem. I had that to the fullest extend.
Just my experience.
Richard Sohn
That is kind of surprising. Was the prop rotating by the glide speed with
the engine dead or did you have low starting battery voltage?
What amp/hour battery did you have?
The lower the amp/hour rating of the battery the more the
voltage will drop when the up to 200 amps goes through
the typical car starter occurs. This sounds like a lot current
but the typical car starter is 3 HP. That is 2,250 watts.
At 11 volts that is 205 amps!
It is a wonder my O-470 starts with the small aircraft battery
I have in the back fuselage. The engine does not spin freely. It kind of
jerks
around one prop blade at a time :-)
The MSD CD was designed for the typical car battery.
Hopefully the Summit CD won't do that since it is designed
down to 10 volts. Maybe later MSD's are better.
On the time to climb engine we use a battery charger capably
of 200 amps to start the engine. The 18 volt battery for the ignition
is only 7 amp/hours. It weighs 7.5 pounds.
A typical cheap car battery would be 30 amp/hour and
weighs 25 pounds.
Paul Lamar
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